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  #21  
Old January 1st, 2012, 11:28 AM
the rover shop
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shayne young
89,93 & 95 camel trophy 110s 06 130
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Someone correct me if I am wrong but a supercharger can't lean out at high RPMs as they aren't producing any boost at higher rpms, they work opposite to a turbo when referring to efficiency...at higher RPMs the rotors of a supercharger are not able to provide boost due to the high CFM of the induction system... "IF" there was any boost the rising rate fuel pressure regulator would provide additional fuel rail pressure thereby increasing the amount of fuel injected, thereby eliminating any lean condition...if there was a lean condition the rising rate fuel pressure regulator could be adjusted up to compensate...although I believe that the RRFPR is already set at the optimum setting... One must remember, we are not installing this for drag racing conditions in a high displacement torque monster engine, but merely to gain a better torque curve on the lower end RPM's...boost pressures and displacement can be altered by changing the supercharger drive pulley...bigger or smaller (think gearing...overdrive or underdrive)...and of course boost pressure can be altered by the blow off regulator and also as mentioned fuel pressure under boost can be altered with the RRFPR... thereby adjusting fuel pressure and subsequently increasing amount of fuel injected with no additional millisecond opening time needed... One must also remember the basic fuctions of the fuel injection system... the mass air flow meter measures the amount of air taken into the engine and lengthens or shortens injector millisecond timing to keep the stoichiometric fuel ratio at or near as dammit to lambda. (approx 14.7 to 1)...but... the function of our stock fuel pressure regulator has a manifold vacuum pipe which under acceleration, or loss of manifold vacuum the fuel pressure regulator bumps the rail pressure up by about 5 psi, this is to give better acceleration...well once you have a supercharger or turbo installed on an engine this makes that regulator compensation device ineffective because you go from a negative atmospheric pressure (vacuum) to a positive pressure (boost)...hence the requirement for a RRFPR... In my opinion the installation of bigger injectors would create problems such as overfueling in the rev range (same millisecong opening times but bigger port....think of it like a garden hose and you operating the nozzle....same opening time on a small vs larger hose would create very different amount of water released)...and in regards to the megasquirt ECU I dont feel that the application that this will be used for will require the need for this type of modification...if it was a high performance or "built" engine running large amounts of boost things may be different... Just my .02 cents worth...
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  #22  
Old January 1st, 2012, 04:05 PM
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Ken Jagolta
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Hmmm, maybe you do know what you are doing after all.
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  #23  
Old January 1st, 2012, 04:29 PM
the rover shop
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shayne young
89,93 & 95 camel trophy 110s 06 130
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Nahhh, I just know how to cut and paste....SHHHH...don't tell anybody...LOL...
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  #24  
Old January 1st, 2012, 07:02 PM
cdb
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Clark Bowen
1969 Series 2a/OM617 Bugeye 88"
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"and in regards to the megasquirt ECU I dont feel that the application that this will be used for will require the need for this type of modification...if it was a high performance or "built" engine running large amounts of boost things may be different... Just my .02 cents worth..."

I agree with you - if - you have the correct chip for the supercharged motor.

However, on the MegaSquirt I think you are mistaken. Essentially you would be setting up your motor to perform at its maximum efficiency. This does take a fair amount of time and a dyno to really do it right but you would then have a supercharged motor that could really perform and reliably so.
The biggest issues you have (if I'm remembering all my reading correctly) are: knock and lean/heat. I think you'll have more likelihood of those occurring with a stock ecu.
Seems to me that if you are going to a SC you should maximize its potential with an upgraded chip or ecu. I think you will be disappointed with the power increase without it. I was.
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  #25  
Old January 1st, 2012, 07:56 PM
the rover shop
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shayne young
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Did you have the rising rate fuel pressure regulator..??
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  #26  
Old January 2nd, 2012, 11:04 PM
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Ethan
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Without the stock ecu that is expecting to see positive pressure going to the intake, a n/a (naturally aspirated) ecu won't know to advance the timing curve to light that fire at the right time in the cylinder. This timing curve is really what creates your power; the difference between a 17:1 air fuel ratio and 12:1 is fractional. Remember too, that if you are all of the sudden feeding more fuel to the engine, the stock fuel pump may no longer be able to supply the amount of fuel the engine needed either (though since this isn't a high boost application, it might be able to keep up) but it is something to think about. Another consideration is if the injectors could handle the increased duty cycle under boost conditions.
You would also want the intake system plumbed exactly like the ecu would want too, for instance adding a blow off valve can throw the computer off, because you will be dumping metered air into the atmosphere that the ecu thinks is there (since it saw it at the MAF).
Remember too, adding just a small amount of boost drastically changes intake pressures inside the cylinders too. Ever had your headgaskets go in your rover (That was a joke, it's ok to laugh)? You might as well prep the motor a little and buy some APR head studs to keep the heads sealed on the motor a bit longer. On that note, might as well add an intercooler too, to keeps intake temps as low as possible.
These are just some quick considerations I'd have straight off the bat. Personally, I'd invest in the Megasquirt ecu (or Autronic, Haltech or the like) and some dyno time to make it run efficiently. Since standalone ecu's are "stupid", being that you have to tell them what they are supposed to do, you have a lot of flexibility when it comes to tuning and can make it do EXACTLY what you want it to. If I owned a $20K+ or $15k or $10K for that matter, I'd spend a couple more bucks to keep it strong and reliable.
Again, I'd love to see this done. Thoughtfully that is. My exhausted, long-weekend .02.
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  #27  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 12:30 AM
cdb
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Clark Bowen
1969 Series 2a/OM617 Bugeye 88"
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"Did you have the rising rate fuel pressure regulator..??"
I'm not sure. I was trying to determine that the other day, but I'm still uncertain.
I don't think the rising rate fuel regulator is that important vs. the other issues with the supercharger.
You can calculate your fuel injector and pump requirements instead of using hit or miss. You will find the formulas in 2 very good books by Greg Banish "Engine Management Advanced Tuning" or "Designing and Tuning High Performance Fuel Injection Systems". Both are available through Amazon.
I liked Engine Management best.
I think it is well worth spending the money on these books if you are going to install a supercharger. The ECU and ignition technology have come a long way since 1997. Why use 20+ year old technology when you can advance so much further with the new stuff? It is, however, more complex.
I'm adding the MegaSquirt now, deleted the MAF and when the fuel delivery is tuned, I'll be adding a Ford EDIS distributorless, crank triggered ignition (using MSD coil packs). As the last poster noted, this is where the power lies.
The more I read and see what the manufacturers are doing, the more I'm convinced supercharging beats 4.6 litres, 5.0 litres hands down in fuel efficiency and power.
With a programmable ECU you'll be setting up your fuel maps and ignition for your specific motor - not a one size fits all chip.
That's why I think someone should buy this sc and then set it up the right way.
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  #28  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 09:18 AM
the rover shop
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shayne young
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Just a ciuple of quick notes on the comments...in regards to the fuel pump not being able to handle the additional demand...being that most fuel pumps are designed to put out up to 200 psi at least and the fuel pressure regulator dumps it off at the required 35-40 psi I would not be worried about the additional demand on the pump being that it should only need an increase in rail pressure by about maximum of 10psi... and in regards to the fuel injectors not being able to handle the increased duty cycle... remember that when engines are cold they enrichen the system by increased duty cycle...under acceleration they are at increased duty cycle...under full revs they are at increased duty cycle ...and we must remember the function and demand of a supercharger...they are only being utilised for let say the first 1500 rpms and them "most' people would be throttling down, changing gears and then going again...they are rarely if ever being utilised for long periods of time in THIS particular application... While I am not saying this is strictly a plug and play application or setup and I agree for maximum optimisation of this setup were you to be drag racing your d-90 with mudders on I would agree on the use of a megasquirt or similar...but let's face it...you start going down that road you are completely changing the objective of a d-90 and then I would be more concerned about 2nd gear synchros driveshafts transfer boxes and axles being able to cope..for the most part the close ratios of the gear box combined with the generally low weight of d-90 would be contributing factor in not being able to "stay in the throttle" for extended periods...I have not listed this as a "bolt it on and go drag racing" setup.. but merely as a fun and unique way to provide a little more show and go... now if I was to offer a drag racing setup I would offer up my balanced and blueprinted...nitrited crank, shot peened carillo rods with forged pistons, solid roller lifter with roller rocker, gear driven custom duration cam, twin turboed, with MSD crank driven ignition engine ....
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  #29  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 12:00 PM
cdb
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Clark Bowen
1969 Series 2a/OM617 Bugeye 88"
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I have an automatic.
I wouldn't use a sc on a R380. Won't handle the torque.
I'm not looking to drag race. Maximum efficiency doesn't mean drag racing. The new Evoque has a 2.0 litre turbocharged Ford engine and produces 240 horsepower. Comparable to my 4.0 litre RRC with a supercharger producing 480 horsepower. I'll be very happy with 280 to 300 horsepower.
I want more torque and reliability and reliability is my biggest concern.
I think I will have a more reliable system after my mods are done.
I will be learning a great deal about ignition, fueling, engine management, etc. and that is very interesting to me.
Defender owners frequently spend thousands on modifications - including 4.6 swaps, and TDIs - and yet are afraid to move into the tuning arena. I definitely was. RPI's images of blown supercharged engines, stories of the Rimmer kit's failures, the usual LR electrical gremlins, and so forth really made me pause. Then I began reading up on the subject and got more scared. Now after 4 books on ignitions, forced induction, fueling maps, Boyle's Law, tuning, I am excited. I am taking much of the risk of my incompetence out by setting up the hardware and then taking it to a dyno tuner.
I may sing a different tune in a few months, but now I'm excited.
I would buy your kit if I still had my 1991 RRC (now deceased) with a nearly new 4.6 litre motor. That would have really been fun and since it was a stripped rockcrawler the wiring would have been much easier.
Good luck on the sale, but give one of those books a glance - you might get interested.
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  #30  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 12:35 PM
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shayne young
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Ahhh, there lays the problem...if I start getting back into that train of thought I start thinking how much fun it would be to do a vehicle with that supercharger...next thing you know my defender 110 project gets put on the backburner...and we ALL know what happens when we lose momentum on a project...LOL... I have had this supercharger system for about 3 years just waiting for me to get around to it....I have to prioritise my projects into essential and fun categories...unfortunately this along with many other projects do not fit into the "essential" category...making my round the world 110 camel trophy truck as bullet-proof as possible does...especially since I hope to get under way on my adventure in the next 2-3 months... If someone is serious about this unit I am open to reasonable offers and by the look of it there is plenty of good quality help available here for assistance...make an offer before it goes up on fleabay...(with a reserve of course..LOL...)
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  #31  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 04:40 PM
cdb
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Clark Bowen
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What is the height, width, and length of the sc, plenum, throttle body etc?
Serpentine setup?
Mileage?
Re-built?
Manufacturer and model #?
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  #32  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 08:22 PM
the rover shop
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shayne young
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I wouldn't even begin to guess where you want me to measure from and to... not sure of the mileage and the year and I don't know what colour truck it was on before either.. Are you looking for ANOTHER supercharger, I thought you were already in the process of building one...???
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  #33  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 09:30 PM
cdb
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Clark Bowen
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I am always thinking about new things. Some I follow through on and some get discarded.
My main concern is the tallest point to see how it would fit in a Range Rover Classic.
My guess is that it is an Eaton 90 or Eaton 112, however, I would still need the thickness of any adapter plates.
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  #34  
Old January 4th, 2012, 02:11 AM
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Dan Berry
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Any trades?
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  #35  
Old January 4th, 2012, 08:42 AM
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shayne young
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Whatcha gots..???
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  #36  
Old February 8th, 2012, 06:31 PM
the rover shop
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shayne young
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Getting tired of tripping over this kit..still for sale..!!!!... Don't make me install this on my new project defender..LOL
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  #37  
Old March 6th, 2012, 09:15 AM
the rover shop
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shayne young
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Just realised there are pics of this pretty much same setup on the front page here under miscellaneous pics..rimmer supercharger...I sat it inside the engine on a defender the other day and its got PLENTY of clearance to the hood..
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  #38  
Old March 6th, 2012, 10:16 AM
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the eaton 90 is the same as the one found in the thunderbird, how ever with all the cooling issues of the rover, I would be weary of forced induction. on the same token, I would port match and polish the intake and exhaust componets for maximum efficiency.... maybe even consider lowering compression ratio in order to take full advantage of the forced induction and increase engine longevity.
I have a 95 lwb with a custom built 4.6, ported polished and matched running a gm 350 crank technically it came out as a a 5.0... it dinoed 298 at the fly wheel I figured im putting 250 on the ground... plenty of power but tends to run on the hot side in traffic increased exhaust pipe size by 1/4 inch to 2 3/4.. every litlle bit has helped but again when pushed hard it runs hot.... I woud love forced induction but due to my current issues I get afraid.
currently giving the wifes 87 a facelift including a similar built 4.6... hopefully I wont have similar cooling issues.
nice set up, hope someone puts it to its proper use....best of luck selling it.
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  #39  
Old March 6th, 2012, 10:42 AM
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A rising-rate fuel pressure regulator is typically used when full ECU tuning is not economically or practically feasible. A full ECU tune with larger injectors is almost always the ideal approach. A rising-rate FPR is generally accepted as "cheap and cheerful". The real issue is whether or not the behavior of the stock injectors is linear at increased fuel pressures. Usually it is not.

The way people deal with the inherent weaknesses of the rising rate FPR is by taking advantage of a simple principle: Run It Rich.
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