ST Roll Cage - New build/rubber repair - gauging interest - Page 2 - Defender Source
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View Poll Results: Soft Top NAS Roll Cage
Interested in New B to C Assembly 17 45.95%
Interested in New B to C Assembly Over Molding 23 62.16%
You're insane, not interested 4 10.81%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old December 1st, 2011, 12:30 PM
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George
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I'm very interested in refurbing the foam on mine.
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  #22  
Old December 1st, 2011, 04:29 PM
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Russell
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What is the ticket for preserving the existing foam? Keep it out of the sun, Armor All, etc?
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  #23  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 05:14 PM
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Tony Lawson
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So it's been a few years. Life. Children. Marriage.....

I've just started the mold making process on this. Set up at home as the winter project. Starting with the B-hoop. It's a complicated mold for sure. Why start easy? At least six main parts and numerous alignment and blanking plugs. I'm making a part line at the existing seams on the upper loop. I don't actually see a seam line there, but they put that expansion zone there for a reason I assume - maybe to control cracking or shrinkage. This will (hopefully!) allow me to use this section of the mold on both the B and C hoops, as these areas appear the same (mirrors actually as the snaps are on the opposite sides). Molds will be graphite lined epoxy. Should hold up for a number of years and castings. I have a full cage of parts uncovered and a C-hoop and Cantrail covered set. So for my project, I'll be concentrating on the B-hoop mold and B-hoop diagonals. I'll do C-hoop and Cantrail molds depending on interest and perhaps more importantly - the match I get on my overmoldings. Which leads to....

Material. I've been getting and casting samples, evaluating density, and testing durometer over the years. As far as I can tell, this is a 60A-80A urethane. And as was stated, a pressure injected, heated mold product. I can't reasonably duplicate that process, so I have been looking at room temperature castable products. Part of the reason for heat curing is to speed up cycle time. I'm not worried about that. Also, the availability and quality of cast products has gone up considerably in the passing decades since the NAS' were built.
Specific gravity is close to 1 - which matches all of the solid cast urethanes. Foamed and skinned urethanes are considerably lower density, so I've ruled them out. Total weight of urethane on a cage is about 70lbs.
The big issue is durability in UV. This rules out the more cost effective castable polyurethane and urethane products(and foamed urethanes too). All the makers flinch and say they will degrade and this will be chalking or worse - sticky, gooey break down.
So, the product will be Aliphatic Isocyanate (wear a respirator). These show no sign of UV degradation under numerous ASTM UV tests. Black coloring makes it even more UV stable(but it is actually a clear cast product, so any coloration is possible. White MAY yellow, but unknown. A white cage?). It has good adhesion properties. Is stronger than the regular, castable urethanes (which I can barely get a razor knife into after 3 days of cure). Down side? It is glossier when first cast compared to the relatively matte finish of the OEM overmold. Although, as I wax up the original for molding, it has become quite glossy itself. So I'll have to see how they match. The other downside is cost. I'm looking at a material cost of $1400+ for a full cage set of castings (not including the cost of any of the metal cage parts them selves). But in the end, this will probably be a better than OEM product.

Partner here at work has the donor cage (a 97 that had been at ECR and was bought as a theft recovery in Seattle). It has been indoors for years now and it in reasonably good to great shape. I'll glue or repair any small cracks with modeling clay or fill with urethane and texture, so the molds should be a pretty clean reproduction. I'll be making prints of the inner roll cage parts as I go but don't have any plans to make these parts. We have an Ercolina bender, so I'd only have to buy the die (1 1/4" IIRC) but they run $800..... the long radius arc on the top of the B and C hoop was done by splining (a small bend every foot or so) so that means a rolling bender isn't needed.

Sorry this has been so slow but trying to move at least glacially on this....

any further thought or ideas welcome


and I suppose this should be in the??? Small projects area?
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  #24  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 09:40 PM
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I am interested. I am not familiar with the correct names for the various parts but I would like to replace these pieces.
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  #25  
Old October 22nd, 2014, 11:51 PM
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Mike Barnett
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Wow Tony, it has been awhile since you've been on here, good to see you back... It's about time you put that bare cage I sold you to good use!
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  #26  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 12:16 AM
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Charles Joerss
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This is great to hear. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.
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  #27  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 12:11 PM
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Tony Lawson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toona View Post
I am interested. I am not familiar with the correct names for the various parts but I would like to replace these pieces.


Toona-


Well, that makes two of us. I'm not exactly sure what you have pictured there. They are the B-Hoop verticals, but no top hoop. I've never seen them as separate pieces. Is this a cut-up B-Hoop? If you are talking about the small, slide on pieces that cover where the top wraps around the A-B hoop horizontal, that part was a separate piece on early NAS' but on later ones, it became part for the whole B-Hoop overmold. As I'm making molds from a later NAS cage, I won't be making those parts separately.... You can see them in the attached photo.


Yeah, good to be working on this finally. Laid up the first mold half last night. Looks good so far....
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  #28  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16kpsi View Post
Toona-


Well, that makes two of us. I'm not exactly sure what you have pictured there. They are the B-Hoop verticals, but no top hoop. I've never seen them as separate pieces. Is this a cut-up B-Hoop? If you are talking about the small, slide on pieces that cover where the top wraps around the A-B hoop horizontal, that part was a separate piece on early NAS' but on later ones, it became part for the whole B-Hoop overmold. As I'm making molds from a later NAS cage, I won't be making those parts separately.... You can see them in the attached photo.


Yeah, good to be working on this finally. Laid up the first mold half last night. Looks good so far....
The hoop that toona pictured was chopped off from an overpass while the truck was on a car carrier. He's looking for the little plungers that appear to be removable but we've told him that the cage part he attached is from a 1994, but he's looking for the part for a 1995-1997 cage (like you have pictured) which is different.
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  #29  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 01:13 PM
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Tony Lawson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
The hoop that toona pictured was chopped off from an overpass while the truck was on a car carrier. He's looking for the little plungers that appear to be removable but we've told him that the cage part he attached is from a 1994, but he's looking for the part for a 1995-1997 cage (like you have pictured) which is different.


OK. So on the 97 cage I'm dealing with, those parts APPEAR to be part of the whole B-Hoop overmolding (so not a separate part). There is a gap that the top would wrap into with some overmolding down at the bottom of the gap with a circular profile (vs. the oval profile of the outer overmold). Is the outer part actually removable like the 94's? I had a 94 and it looked just like Toona's - they slide away. But it did a crappy job of sealing the top in that area. Are the ones on the donor I have just completely stuck on? Be nice if they were actually removable as this is a really tricky area to mold.


thanks
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  #30  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16kpsi View Post
OK. So on the 97 cage I'm dealing with, those parts APPEAR to be part of the whole B-Hoop overmolding (so not a separate part). There is a gap that the top would wrap into with some overmolding down at the bottom of the gap with a circular profile (vs. the oval profile of the outer overmold). Is the outer part actually removable like the 94's? I had a 94 and it looked just like Toona's - they slide away. But it did a crappy job of sealing the top in that area. Are the ones on the donor I have just completely stuck on? Be nice if they were actually removable as this is a really tricky area to mold.


thanks
Yeah exactly. I've told toona this a few times now. They're part of the whole B hoop overmolding. They are not removable like the 1994 ones he attached a pic of. The outer part is not actually removable on the 1995/97 cage (which is what you and toona have).
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  #31  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 06:12 PM
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Got it, thank you. This is exactly what I have been trying to figure out...I want to replace the entire B-hoop but Josh thought I only wanted to replace just the sleeves (and I never knew what the F* a B-hoop, C-hoop, B-C Horizontal, B-hoop diagonals, sleeve, etc was until today so couldn't articulate that properly).

So, I now believe I am interested in the whole B-Hoop overmolding for my 95. Will you be selling these separate from the C-hoop part?

Hopefully this is clear but happy to provide pictures if not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 16kpsi View Post
Toona-


Well, that makes two of us. I'm not exactly sure what you have pictured there. They are the B-Hoop verticals, but no top hoop. I've never seen them as separate pieces. Is this a cut-up B-Hoop? If you are talking about the small, slide on pieces that cover where the top wraps around the A-B hoop horizontal, that part was a separate piece on early NAS' but on later ones, it became part for the whole B-Hoop overmold. As I'm making molds from a later NAS cage, I won't be making those parts separately.... You can see them in the attached photo.


Yeah, good to be working on this finally. Laid up the first mold half last night. Looks good so far....
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  #32  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toona View Post
Got it, thank you. This is exactly what I have been trying to figure out...I want to replace the entire B-hoop but Josh thought I only wanted to replace just the sleeves (and I never knew what the F* a B-hoop, C-hoop, B-C Horizontal, B-hoop diagonals, sleeve, etc was until today so couldn't articulate that properly). So, I now believe I am interested in the whole B-Hoop overmolding for my 95. Will you be selling these separate from the C-hoop part? Hopefully this is clear but happy to provide pictures if not.
Hey I said you could replace the entire B hoop/pillar in your other thread, but you said you just wanted to replace that tiny part - we kept telling you that wasn't possible and that you could replace the entire B, but I think you just weren't aware of the cage sections nomenclature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Or you can buy an entire B pillar section from a 1995-97 for a few thousand dollars
Here is a partial cage diagram of a 1994's NAS Defender 90 roll cage for your future reference.
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  #33  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 06:20 PM
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I'm looking for a C hoop and cantrail bars. If you make them, im a buyer.
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  #34  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 06:27 PM
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Haha, touche. Well that makes a lot more sense now... love how fast you dug that up

Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Hey I said you could replace the entire B hoop/pillar in your other thread, but you said you just wanted to replace that tiny part - we kept telling you that wasn't possible and that you could replace the entire B, but I think you just weren't aware of the cage sections nomenclature.
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  #35  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 07:44 PM
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I'll need a C-pillar and a set of 95/97 diagonals as well. And I'm a buyer too ;-)

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Originally Posted by toona View Post
Haha, touche. Well that makes a lot more sense now... love how fast you dug that up
Isn't that amazing how they do that! Rijosho, Ron, Briggs, and a few others all have Oracle status and sit at the special table.
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  #36  
Old October 23rd, 2014, 08:35 PM
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It is.. Jedi status.

That diagram is incredible. I can finally say I'm a buyer of a whole B hoop over molding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D90Overkill View Post
I'll need a C-pillar and a set of 95/97 diagonals as well. And I'm a buyer too ;-)



Isn't that amazing how they do that! Rijosho, Ron, Briggs, and a few others all have Oracle status and sit at the special table.
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  #37  
Old October 24th, 2014, 12:50 PM
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Tony Lawson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toona View Post
It is.. Jedi status.

That diagram is incredible. I can finally say I'm a buyer of a whole B hoop over molding.


It's funny how these vehicles are all different. I had a 94' and it did NOT have those lower horizontals between the B and C-hoops.


Thanks for the info Josh - helps. I had a close look at those caps last night and they are decidedly all part of the B-hoop overmold. I can see how they added it to the originals. It'd be easier if I had metal molds as it really complicated that area....I might omit the thin section of overmolding that extends down the A-B horizontal about 4" further. it complicates things and is so thin, it fails easily. Not sure what its purpose was.


Toona - the overmolding of the B-hoop is exactly what I'm working on, so that will be the first thing I'll provide after I overmold my stripped B-hoop. This is not something I can make and send to you however. I'd need your existing stripped B-hoop metal that I lay into the mold and then cast over it. Just FYI.


and the more interest I see on complete diagonals and other parts will help me decide if I'll start making the metal interior pieces as well.


cheers
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  #38  
Old October 24th, 2014, 03:17 PM
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I've often wondered about having any extra benefit in safety or rigidity by adding those '94 style lower longitudinal bars. It's strange that you don't have them on your '94. I like the thought of them and I love overkill! ;-).

P.s. Great work you're doing. I'm excited to see the results! Keep it up.
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  #39  
Old October 25th, 2014, 04:55 PM
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Can anyone make the cage parts so entire new pieces could be made?
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  #40  
Old October 27th, 2014, 02:35 PM
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I would be interested in the C pillar hoop and cantrails.
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