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  #21  
Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:03 PM
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dont know but I have heard its not really a big deal. I will ask Matt when i pick up My 90 from IP tuning
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  #22  
Old October 2nd, 2008, 09:17 PM
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No

You need the correct injection pump and injection lines to make that worth anything. Otherwise you need pedal, air flow meters crank sensors etc... The list goes on.... It really will only work with auto transmission as well-to mount the crank sensors.

I'm surprised you would list this for sale without disclosing it is an EDC motor. What Matt prolly said was it was not a big deal to change it back to mechanical pump from EDC which is true. That thing is a boat anchor until you source injection pump lines and at least one injector to get rid of the sensor injector. IMO

JP
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  #23  
Old October 3rd, 2008, 11:40 AM
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Cool

umm......I did state that I was not a mechanic. I did state it was a 300TDI, I did post pics so people would be able to see for themselves.I did not try to sell anything as something other than what it was, no deception because it leads to bad Carma :O(

I dont know why you are choosing to judge my ethics and flame my thread as I have never ever done or said anything that would refelect badly on you. I have lived up to my end of the deal on any transactions I have made through this site, ask Ron Peppard or Chris Vonc (some of their stuff lives on my 90). So hopefully we can all get along and use this site and use it for its inteded use, a resource for people with a common passion and not act like a bunch of wankers throwing sand in each others face.
Cheers
SteveJ
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  #24  
Old October 3rd, 2008, 02:23 PM
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Mr Pendleton, i am not quite sure what you are saying there...... are you saying that for that engine to go into a land rover and run with its present injection pump it needs 'pedal, air flow meters crank sensors etc... The list goes on....'?

lets be frank here, i dont want to get between a good bitch between two posters..... well, ok, i do, i would say that if that is what people are here for then they should go somewhere else for it rather than a forum where some people are trying to get good straight information......

back to the engine in question, which it has to be said would have none of those things you mention for to run in the land rover it came out of......

you will also find that the pump is the only thing run by the ecu in a diesel rover of that year meaning that it only controls the fuel supply to the pump. (if you want i can send you the wiring diagram) it does depend on the year and WHAT it came out of.... disco or defender. defender engines didnt have egr for one thing......there is a wire going to an injector (i think i see it in a pic) but that can be switched out......

therefore another thing you will find is that by switching the pump for a manual one you then have a totally manual engine. now, you dont even have to switch the pump but can switch just the housing on the top that holds all the electronics for the manual one for the manual pump.... hence making a manual pump. alternatively switch it for a 200tdi pump ! (yes.... they are interchangable.... as are the fuel lines that go to them)

hope this clarifies..... i would say it would be wasted as a boat anchor, rather the wrong shape me thinks ;o)
  #25  
Old October 3rd, 2008, 07:08 PM
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Listen,

The fact is- more money has to be spent on the engine for it to be useable. I have been the victim as have others over the years of UK vendors selling these EDC engines as drop in units. Only then to have to source an injection pump, lines ond other extras in order to be able to use it. Using the lines that come with the EDC pump is a waste of time and makes problems for the next guy that has to work on it. Duncan if you have some junk injection pumps laying around that can be used to make that pump useable thats great. But it does me no good as the parts are scarce here. If the correct parts were provided with the engine I would consider it complete. If not it is no more then a core eith some anchilleries.

If the original poster did not have knowledge of this-then I say no foul. But it is still clutter in the for sale section because the price does not reflect the item portrayed as being sold.

Follow-up Post:

[QUOTE=rovernutzz]Mr Pendleton, i am not quite sure what you are saying there...... are you saying that for that engine to go into a land rover and run with its present injection pump it needs 'pedal, air flow meters crank sensors etc... The list goes on....'?
you will also find that the pump is the only thing run by the ecu in a diesel rover of that year meaning that it only controls the fuel supply to the pump. (if you want i can send you the wiring diagram) it does depend on the year and WHAT it came out of.... disco or defender. defender engines didnt have egr for one thing......there is a wire going to an injector (i think i see it in a pic) but that can be switched out......therefore another thing you will find is that by switching the pump for a manual one you then have a totally manual engine. now, you dont even have to switch the pump but can switch just the housing on the top that holds all the electronics for the manual one for the manual pump.... hence making a manual pump. alternatively switch it for a 200tdi pump ! (yes.... they are interchangable.... as are the fuel lines that go to them)QUOTE]

As I read this I can tell you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

If you want to use a 300 tdi with EDC injection pump it needs an airflow meter input, a throttle input, and a crank sensor input which was only provided for on the automatic transmissions in Land Rover Discoverys. These inputs have to be provided to the Fuel ECU wihich runs the EDC injection pump. This is what I recall offhand, there are probably more inputs required. Its much more trouble then its worth.

If this engine has the mechanical injection pump on it, or supplied with it, it is a viable option. Without it, its just a bodgers special being passed off as something it isn't - Duncan.

A spade is a spade and a boat anchor is well, a boat anchor.

Mixing and matching injection lines on these engines between EDC, 200's and 300's is a bad idea IMO as well. Sure you can bend to fit. But in the end you are left with a bent up part that is not fit for its purpose and only causes problems for the next guy.
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  #26  
Old October 4th, 2008, 09:15 AM
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well.... i know for a fact that the edc pumps are interchangable with manual pumps with no bending of pipes or other parts and i know that the 200 and 300 pumps are interchangable as i have done both more than once.... no bending or fabricating required........ less than an hours work... but its ok. you go on believing what you want to believe and i will do the same. i am happy to be proved wrong... i am just going by my own experience. i would not mess with the electric pump anyway, is a waste of time when you get an end product that is electronicly controlled.... i dont like ecu's.

i am happy to supply the parts for making that engine manual... though you may find that steve has the parts himself if you ask him nicely, in know he has a good amount of bits kicking around these days..... weissbrewer ?

i am sorry you have had bad experiences getting bits from the uk... maybe you are getting them from the wrong guys......
  #27  
Old October 4th, 2008, 09:54 AM
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parts

Hey Duncan and good morning Jim :O). I will keep this brief as I am off to cater a wedding for 200 at the base of Mt Washington (where it snowed last night) Cooking and brewing beer is my area of expertise not wrenching, I pay guys like Matt Browne for thar! I Do have a spare 200 tdi with a pump lying around actually a whole engine, which I bought for a spare parts donor for the disco 200 I put in my NAS 90 (which all of the experts said wasnt a correct or easy thing to do, but is none the less done). I am happy to provide the parts needed and actually yesterday sold Will Bobbitt an intercooler and am having Duncan source a crank pully for him as well. I dont know how you say the price does not reflect unit condition Jim as you did not purchase it or have never inspected it. The matrket dtermines price and I will get the parts needed to make the engine what the purchaser need as I would expect others to do; and have done for me in the past: IE Duncan.
Jim paerhaps you have your nose so up Julians butt that you can not separeate Me from Duncan or yourself from his posterior
Cheers
SteveJ
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  #28  
Old October 4th, 2008, 10:57 AM
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I am one of those folks who bought a 300tdi that was supposed to be totally mechanical. Jim is the person who helped me tear it down and make it so. As far as I read, he is 100% correct.

Edit: The injection lines were different between the mechanical and electronic IP as well.
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  #29  
Old October 4th, 2008, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovernutzz
well.... i know for a fact that the edc pumps are interchangable with manual pumps ......
This is correct and what I stated in my first post beyond that I disagree. But to use it with the EDC pump is not worth the trouble/

Weiss If you think my nose is up Julians butt good for you. I have been thinking and acting for myself long before he was ever around here. The fact is you tried to sell an engine that was missing a key component to make it useable. This is a bait and switch scam many of us have fallen victim to by UK, Canadian and other vendors in the past. So either you did not know what you were selling or you were trying to pawn it off on someone else because you found out how much trouble it was going to be to use it for yourself. I'm not sure which-but by your defensive tone I am gonna guess you were trying to pawn it off on someone else. I felt it necessary to inform the public considering its purchase so they did not have the same bad experience buying one of these EDC motors as many of us have in the past. Its what we do to help each other out around here.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pendy
No
You need the correct injection pump and injection lines to make that worth anything.
JP

Maybe you had trouble reading what I said - Duncan. I agree the injection pump can be changed. But to use the EDC pump on there is not cost effective or suggested. Mixing injection lines and building pumps from broken scrap pile items is not anything someone from D90 source would be interested in doing either IMO.

If you are the same Duncan that built a 300 tdi Discovery for Will Scott I would have to question any of the work you do on any vehicle. Cooling lines build from hardware store plumbing fixtures. Hoses slipped on copper pipe bends 1/2" with a clamp to make a corner, no sealing lip. Exhaust tubing used for connections on cooling hoses with a bent up lip digging into the hose. No wonder the thing ran out of coolant and overheated. Errant unprotected wires strewn about the engine bay to connect the starter circuit. Reusing the engine harness with about 25 extra unused wires left in the loom laying about, just looking for a short circuit. Crushed fuel lines from bending them to aggressively. No fan shroud. crappy ground and power circuits from the battery. The list goes on from there. Is what I describe some of your work?

Maybe this is what has me stirred up more then anything. But anyone selling a 300 tdi EDC without full disclosure on what it is always gets my hair up. Beyond that I would have never been in this post.

Jim Pendleton
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  #30  
Old October 4th, 2008, 04:27 PM
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jim.... take a look at yourself here a sec. it was likely that steve reacted to your tone rather than anything else. maybe try enquiring what is happening rather than telling everyone how it is.

i spent some time today switching out my manual 300tdi pump to an edc pump. all the fuel lines mated up as they should and it started and idled as it should. all it needed was the ecu to get it to rev and drive..... speaks for itself. switched it back again so i can drive it.

i am a little surprised to hear your tone towards steve as you have been highly recomended by him to many.....
  #31  
Old October 4th, 2008, 04:40 PM
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Not really tryng to butt in here or take sides but I have seen some of Pendletons work with my own eyes and it is friggin artwork. He's always been honest and fair to everyone on this site and from the sounds of this thread he was just putting out info so the buyer would be aware...the knee jerk reactions to his posts seem a bit defensive to me. Like all of you have said you'll do what works for you and so it should be. If you disagree fine, state your point but dont jump his shit just 'cause he's giving a heads up. In addition to being a good source for parts the D-90 source is also a good place to pass good information.
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  #32  
Old October 4th, 2008, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovernutzz
i spent some time today switching out my manual 300tdi pump to an edc pump. all the fuel lines mated up as they should and it started and idled as it should. all it needed was the ecu to get it to rev and drive..... speaks for itself. switched it back again so i can drive it.

....
Thats great you say you switched the manual pump. It may have started and idled. But it needs more then the ECU to make it rev. The ECU Will need its inputs before it can send fuel to the EDC injection pump. Pedal signal. Air flow meter. Crank signal which will be hard to provide on a manual transmission. Etc......The injector lines from the manual pump will fit the EDC pump but the EDC lines do not fit the manual pump correctly.

So I have to disagree it does not speak for itself.

And retrofitting a 200 tdi pump does not seem like a good idea either to me. Are the delivery valves matched to the 300 tdi injectors? I do not think they are. Is the injection pump timing between its shaft and the flange that attaches to the belt pulley set correctly to 300 tdi timing. Its more then just lining up the pin and the flywheel,camshaft marks. The pump is set differently to its flange based on it application.


My only problem with this post from the beginning has been that a 300 tdi was offered for sale with the EDC injection pump. And it was not disclosed that it is an EDC motor which is worth less then a manual pump 300 tdi.
Then you guys came up with your less then adequate solutions to make it a viable option. I am not questioning the price, just the fact the motor needs to be advertised as what it really is. Before someone like Steve, who does not know any better, comes along and buys it only to find he has to spend a bunch more money to make it run. Or worse yet someone buys it and has it sent to me to work with. The the crybaby syndrome starts and I have to find parts to make the damn thing run and loose time and money in the process. You are artificially making the market cheaper IMO.
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  #33  
Old October 5th, 2008, 11:09 AM
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Jim, I am really sorry.......I just think that casting dispersions on my character gets my tail up. Was I trying to "bait & switch" would I post pics? Knowing fully others will chime in ?! I never posted it as anything its not & now I am not going to sell it. I am going to put it into a 110 and use it as one of my trucks to deliver kegs. So off the table and no more discussion. I cant believe after all this we were in email about Myself buying your friends lotus last summer (and you faild to follow through w/ contact info) how you jumped my throat as I have always spoken in high regard of Your expertise on diesel rover matters to people in the Maine & NH rover communities. This is starting to go the edgy way of some Disco web theads I have seen so if one of the mods could remove this listing; please do so.

Jim I think You would have a hard time on this side of the country finding any one I have ever screwed, weather it Rover related or in my general business life. So dont make it sound like I am trying to do so, as the evidence does not suggest it (should you look at the thread as a whole). Those of us with ethics do not require your stamp of approval to have validity.

Regards
Stephen Johnson
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  #34  
Old October 5th, 2008, 11:16 AM
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How about we start a new thread about 300Tdi versions where all involved can make penance by posting pix and useful info so that we'll have it for future reference? Then I can delete this thread and we can forget this whole matter.
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  #35  
Old October 5th, 2008, 11:57 AM
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Why delete the thread?

The arguments speak for themselves. If Steve truly did not know then he meant no harm listing the item for sale. He did post pictures. He is the one who got his hair up and got defensive about the whole issue. Then his bud Duncan got on board and tried to argue with me over the engine being considered a complete unit or not and offered less then adequate means to make it whole.

I am not trying to argue with the price that was set on the item. That is his and the buyers business. I only came in to warn people that the engine was a EDC version and therefore would take a lot more resources to make it a viable option installing in a vehicle.

All he had to do was say "Oh my mistake. Its going to need the correct injection pump to function. Pendy thinks it will need injection lines as well. The price is still _____" End of story. But instead they tried to become aggressive with me and I just stuck to the facts. I think he is rather childish after this banter myself.


I will be disappointed if this thread is deleted. I would rather have people learn the lesson about buying one of these boat anchor engines by reading a few pages of arguments rather then spending their money only to find out what they really bought later.

Do not delete this thread!

As far as the Lotus Steve. Grow the F up. I gave your information to the guy selling the car like I said I would. He choose not to contact you. The ball was in his court. I'm sorry I even tried to help you out if that is your attitude.

Follow-up Post:

Why remove the engine from sale? Just go source the correct injection pump and injection lines and raise the price accordingly. I gaurantee this listing has had a lot more attention to it then if I had minded my own business. Good or bad there was still a lot of interest.

Pay Matt B to put the correct pump and lines on. Put on a new T-belt while he is at it. That makes it even more viable for the garage mechanic.

Do I have to hold your hand on this deal just because I took a fair poke at your listing?

As far as Ethics- the facts are the facts. You can't give a Sarah Palin wink online to make things all better like a savy politician.
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  #36  
Old October 5th, 2008, 12:34 PM
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[QUOTE=pendy]Listen,

The fact is- more money has to be spent on the engine for it to be useable. I have been the victim as have others over the years of UK vendors selling these EDC engines as drop in units. Only then to have to source an injection pump, lines ond other extras in order to be able to use it. Using the lines that come with the EDC pump is a waste of time and makes problems for the next guy that has to work on it. Duncan if you have some junk injection pumps laying around that can be used to make that pump useable thats great. But it does me no good as the parts are scarce here. If the correct parts were provided with the engine I would consider it complete. If not it is no more then a core eith some anchilleries.

If the original poster did not have knowledge of this-then I say no foul. But it is still clutter in the for sale section because the price does not reflect the item portrayed as being sold.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rovernutzz
Mr Pendleton, i am not quite sure what you are saying there...... are you saying that for that engine to go into a land rover and run with its present injection pump it needs 'pedal, air flow meters crank sensors etc... The list goes on....'?
you will also find that the pump is the only thing run by the ecu in a diesel rover of that year meaning that it only controls the fuel supply to the pump. (if you want i can send you the wiring diagram) it does depend on the year and WHAT it came out of.... disco or defender. defender engines didnt have egr for one thing......there is a wire going to an injector (i think i see it in a pic) but that can be switched out......therefore another thing you will find is that by switching the pump for a manual one you then have a totally manual engine. now, you dont even have to switch the pump but can switch just the housing on the top that holds all the electronics for the manual one for the manual pump.... hence making a manual pump. alternatively switch it for a 200tdi pump ! (yes.... they are interchangable.... as are the fuel lines that go to them)QUOTE]

As I read this I can tell you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

If you want to use a 300 tdi with EDC injection pump it needs an airflow meter input, a throttle input, and a crank sensor input which was only provided for on the automatic transmissions in Land Rover Discoverys. These inputs have to be provided to the Fuel ECU wihich runs the EDC injection pump. This is what I recall offhand, there are probably more inputs required. Its much more trouble then its worth.

If this engine has the mechanical injection pump on it, or supplied with it, it is a viable option. Without it, its just a bodgers special being passed off as something it isn't - Duncan.

A spade is a spade and a boat anchor is well, a boat anchor.

Mixing and matching injection lines on these engines between EDC, 200's and 300's is a bad idea IMO as well. Sure you can bend to fit. But in the end you are left with a bent up part that is not fit for its purpose and only causes problems for the next guy.
Jim, your quote above calls it "But it is still clutter in the for sale section because the price does not reflect the item portrayed as being sold". now in your last post you say the price is between the seller and buyer. I did say that I would source the parts needed to make it complete so I do not know why when you accuse my ethics by saying I didnt disclose or calling it bait and switch or the above mentioned clutter,i get a little agitated; karma does not forgive so easily. Hey read the posts they speak for them selves. You started pissing on me first.

ill take the Palin wink ;O)

I am sure the Obama sticker looks good on your rover and you and the rest of the worlds victims can be happy when the govermnt is making sure every facet of your life is ok:O)

You can be god here if You like, I am positive your skills are artful, but your ego has exceeded good taste.

kirk out
SteveJ
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  #37  
Old October 5th, 2008, 01:23 PM
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You don't know my politics so don't even pretend to.

I stand behind what I said. For you to offer a 300 tdi engine for sale and not disclose it as an EDC engine confuses potential buyers as to what is being sold and what the asking price is. I never said you were asking to much or claimed to set the market price myself . I SAID YOUR LISTING WAS MISLEADING!

When these 300 tdi engines are sold with EDC injection pump without that fact being disclosed it is a bait and switch IMO. If you were not aware of the fact or disagree thats your business. But I am entitled to my opinion.

Its seems like it is your EGO that is keeping this thread going. As far as good taste goes selling a bill of goods is certainly bad taste.
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  #38  
Old October 5th, 2008, 06:40 PM
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Here's a compromise, I'll leave the thread in place but lock it. I think it has definitely fulfilled its purpose as a educational tool, but it has certainly outlived its usefulness as an ad.
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