Whats legal? Frame Swaps, Importing, etc - Page 9 - Defender Source
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  #161  
Old November 16th, 2008, 03:55 PM
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Tim Golden
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i say WHO CARES!!!! i mean really who cares what it is if the vin is a 109 and the car is a 110. or if you have a newer defender titled as an 1983 or 1993. if that is what you want to drive and you have the money to spend, i say why not. also, don't forget about the diplomatic vehicles.
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  #162  
Old January 16th, 2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden747
i say WHO CARES!!!! i mean really who cares what it is if the vin is a 109 and the car is a 110. or if you have a newer defender titled as an 1983 or 1993. if that is what you want to drive and you have the money to spend, i say why not. also, don't forget about the diplomatic vehicles.

I don't care what people do either, but as a state licensed dealer for Red Mountain Rovers would you take in a 2001 BMW 3 Series that had a 1971 BWM VIN applied to it and sell it on a 1971 BMW title??

I always find it funny that some folks would say they would never buy a BMW or Audi with an older VIN and title as that is totally illegal, but with a Land Rover its A'OK.

Just an observation, not looking to start a debate.
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  #163  
Old January 16th, 2009, 02:05 PM
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Mind you there isn't quite as much of a difference in the LR line...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
I don't care what people do either, but as a state licensed dealer for Red Mountain Rovers would you take in a 2001 BMW 3 Series that had a 1971 BWM VIN applied to it and sell it on a 1971 BMW title??

I always find it funny that some folks would say they would never buy a BMW or Audi with an older VIN and title as that is totally illegal, but with a Land Rover its A'OK.

Just an observation, not looking to start a debate.
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  #164  
Old May 14th, 2009, 09:41 AM
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FYI for anyone that wants to read it -
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/E8-30335.htm

A place called Export Auto petitioned the NHTSA early last year to make 94 and 95 d90's eligible for importation. The linked document discusses the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, the feedback received, and the final decision, which is rather interesting.

BTW, when these are posted for public comment, anyone can respond, which is why there are comments from Ford Motor Company and Skytop Rover. Oddly enough Skytop's comments look as if they are trying to argue that the 90's are not capable of being modified (i.e. structural chassis modifications required). It would of course be nice if NHTSA would check the qualifications of references before accepting comments. Its sometimes disturbing to realize that anyone with a keyboard can affect the laws and regulations that affect everyone.

Follow-up Post:

BTW - despite all the hubbub the final decision was actually in favor of allowing importation of pick ups (I guess as opposed to soft tops) and station wagons with certain letters in the VIN to be imported.
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  #165  
Old May 14th, 2009, 10:07 AM
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So it looks like:

The applicability of this decision is limited to nonconforming 1994 and 1995 Land Rover Defender 90 MPVs with the following characteristics:

(1) 1994 Land Rover Defender 90 MPVs--2-door pickup only,

(2) 1995 Land Rover Defender 90 MPVs--2-door pickup and 2-door station wagon hardtop only,

(3) 1994 & 1995 Land Rover Defender 90 MPVs--The seventh position of the VIN must be the character "A"
("A" = Basic, Soft Top, Pickup, Hardtop Van)

(4) 1994 & 1995 Land Rover Defender 90 MPVs--The eighth position must be the character "M"
("M"= 4.0l, V8 Efi, petrol)

(5) 1994 & 1995 Land Rover Defender 90 MPVs manufactured on or after September 1, 1994--The GVWR assigned by the original manufacturer must be greater than 2722 kg.
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  #166  
Old May 14th, 2009, 10:07 AM
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No shock that bottom feeder would be trying to toss up a stink.
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  #167  
Old May 14th, 2009, 10:25 AM
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You would think he would want to do the mods himself and teach all of his franchise owners how to do it

I did not see any mention of motor specifics or did I miss that?

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No shock that bottom feeder would be trying to toss up a stink.
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  #168  
Old May 14th, 2009, 10:48 AM
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I think you're confusing Skytop and Big Sky Rovers. Little matter though, neither are patronized by the rover cognoscenti.
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  #169  
Old May 14th, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Thanks for updating that Jim. Though if you read carefully they are calling the soft top models pick ups. So, what does it all mean? Now the search is on for LHD 94 and 95's with v8's and EFI. If you actually find one, you can buy it for $n,000 and then another 2k or so to get it here, and god knows how much for a hack errm, cou<skytop>gh RI to convert it. And then you have to drop another $2500-$10k (depending on your level of horse trading ability and mechanical aptitude) to do the Tdi swap before you have the LR everyone really wants. Plus potential emissions issues in your state of residence. Meanwhile solid examples of NAS 94's and 95's are popping up for $12-15k US. Only someone bad at math or obsessed with the year of a vehicle would go the RI route. I don't think this is going to result in an influx of imported 94's and 95's any more than the ruling on the 93 110's did. The whole point of importing any vehicle is to get something cooler than the crap already available. And a bonus if you can save some money in the process. So despite all this NHTSA lip-service, 83's and 84's are still the gonna be the best bang/buck ratio, if you can stomach the emotional rollercoaster of buying sight unseen from a complete stranger 3k miles away. Or an NAS if you have a bit more cash and want to be able to see the thing in person before making a commitment.

But thanks for posting that link as I'd read the comments last year before the decision was posted and then forgot about it. Always interesting to see how the official opinions differ from reality...

oh, and Michael, (mpsteil) the motor is not mentioned because NHTSA doesn't deal with engines. The implication that fuel system has to conform to the NAS setup implies you will be using a petrol motor. And after satisfying DOT/NHTSA you still have EPA to deal with so it will likely have to be the v8 efi. Which is so superior to all the ROW trucks that all catch fire. Oh wait I've got that backwards, it's the supposedly-safer NAS trucks that self-immolate



Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
FYI for anyone that wants to read it -
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/E8-30335.htm
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  #170  
Old May 14th, 2009, 11:06 AM
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Can someone alert me to a petition when they come up because I want to publicly comment.
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  #171  
Old May 14th, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Can someone alert me to a petition when they come up because I want to publicly comment.
You just have to check the docket list and stay on top of it. I only check every few months just to see what the latest decisions are.

Dave is right on, the decision doesn't actually have any significance. From my PoV, it looks like Skytop's comments were calculated to ensure that the decision was as exclusive as possible.

Did any vehicles other than NAS trucks actually have the v8? Certainly not a 4.0 v8. Maybe gulf-spec vehicles? I'm not sure, but I am sure that if they exist, the number of vehicles that are now eligible to be imported under this compliance number is very small, and it certainly won't be cost-effective to import them. Perhaps that was Skytop's goal - after failing to get "Operation Rover Freedom" off the ground, perhaps he just wants to piss in other people's cornflakes.

We also went around this issue here:

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ad.php?t=18375

I figured the info needed to be in this thread, but I forgot we had already discussed it at the above link.
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  #172  
Old May 14th, 2009, 07:39 PM
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George Kase
1983 110 200Tdi CSW LHD
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200Tdi engine import experience...

Thought I'd post this past couple of weeks learning, as it seems everyone's experiences either present another data point or another reality on importing 90s and 110s depending on who's looking at it. I purchased a used 200Tdi engine and parts from UK supplier for my "new" 1983 110 and of course, had the engine shipped to Chicago. Upon arrival, customs officer was convinced that this was not OK to let in due to EPA regulations...my customs broker contacted EPA and there was some confusion as to what actually was being imported and my applications were rejected...my broker called me and gave me EPA officers name and phone number to call and clarify since broker really wasn't understanding what exactly was in the crate...So...when I called and explained to EPA that it was a diesel engine from a 1991 Land Rover Defender and that it was just an engine and parts and that it was destined for a 1983 Land Rover 110, he said "Oh...that's allowed...newer engine into vehicle at least 25 years old"...he didn't seem to care if it was diesel or not, just that it was going into a 25 year old truck...I can tell you that I was both surprised and
VERY relieved at his non-chalance about it all...so, when the EPA form then went back over to customs clearly indicating diesel engine, NOT entire 1991 Land Rover Defender, it flew through no problem...I was really surprised that customs was so concerned about EPA ok and that EPA was so blase' about the diesel engine being imported for use in the USA...I thought for sure I had screwed the pooch on this. Whew.
George
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  #173  
Old May 14th, 2009, 09:54 PM
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George, that is awesome!
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  #174  
Old May 21st, 2009, 09:39 PM
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George, I am hoping to get my fathers 1984 D110 LHC shipped to the states next year. It has 260,000 on the engine and tranny. So, when I get it, the goal is to upgrade both. Your story gives me hope. Would you mind answering a few questions about your purchase? Who did you order it from, cost, how was was the swap out?
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  #175  
Old May 21st, 2009, 10:39 PM
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George Kase
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Hi Merle,
No problem...I purchased a used Defender 200Tdi kit from CWS breakers in the UK (http://www.cws4x4.co.uk/engines.php) and worked with Richard thru email mostly although we did do one phone call to iron out a credit card issue...very helpful. their prices are on the URL as noted...I think the whole Defender 200Tdi kit with parts was around $2400 delivered to Chicago but there was of course import costs and broker fees and so forth. They packed everything in a nifty yellow plastic container which was banded. I just picked it up Monday and have not even had time to inspect yet (will do Saturday). Caution...this container thing weighs 800 pounds. I had to rent a Uhaul with a ramp...the freight company loaded it on the uhaul with a fork lift and then at my house me and a friend managed to push it down the ramp into my garage...gotta use a ramp unless you have a fork lift at home to get it off the truck of course. I almost picked it up with a pickup truck...would a been SOL getting it off the truck at home. Oh, and I credit my customs broker for getting to the bottom of the EPA approval process with customs...I would not have been able to pull that off alone. Any other questions feel free to ask.
George
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  #176  
Old May 22nd, 2009, 01:10 AM
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Thanks for the heads up, I was thinking about having the work done overseas, but there is a lot of uncertainty about the rig making it into the States with the diesel. Some say it would be fine, others are not so sure. I am trying to get all of my ducks in a row...before I start shelling out money. Thanks again, Merle
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  #177  
Old May 22nd, 2009, 10:41 AM
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I wil only make two observations about my experience...Customs wanted their money and to make sure that EPA was OK with what's coming in (probably in that order). Second, Both EPA and Customs were very interested in that 25 year demarcation point. I think that's why I had the wrinkle since my engine is a 90s vintage engine and Customs was concerned that it fell outside of the 25 year EPA boundary. I don't know what would have happened if I had not gotten to talk to the EPA officer on the phone to clarify that it was a diesel and that it was going into a 25 year old truck. The EPA form is tilted towards motor vehicles but there are a couple of places to circle "engine" and where they ask for VIN# and so forth they told me to write in "N-A" for not applicable. Now...would I bet good money on everything working the same way again? Nope. But, if I needed another diesel engine and couldn't get a price I could afford from one of our stateside suppliers, I'd sure try again. I must add that if I had the extra dough, I'd sure as heck buy from someone that already had one here in the states.
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  #178  
Old May 22nd, 2009, 11:07 AM
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George,

Glad it worked out for you.
Importation never seems to go the same twice. I have some sort of problem with nearly everything major item I bring over and its different/ unforeseen each and every time.

Doug
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  #179  
Old May 22nd, 2009, 11:51 AM
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If you get one of CWS conversion kits, what everyone thinks the cost to do the swap will be? and how intense is it for attempting it on your own.

Mechanical skills here maybe a 5-6 in a 1 to 10 scale.
Time availability 1 in a 1-10 scale *LOL*

Thanks
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  #180  
Old June 29th, 2009, 12:17 AM
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Wish me luck. I am going to go through PA's procedure. I am sure the DMV is going to flip when I send them reciepts for 100s of rover parts.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/06...chap19toc.html

Note the following: in 4703.

(10) A motor vehicle registered as an antique pursuant to section 1340 (relating to antique, classic and collectible plates).
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