Whats legal? Frame Swaps, Importing, etc - Page 4 - Defender Source
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  #61  
Old May 17th, 2006, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talleyrand
The only dilemma is finding the 1983 110s with their V5 registrations. There will be a few about but not many still on the road, and no doubt in the next year or so their values will jump a bit!
Lets not forget that the UK isn't the only place to find used Land Rover 110s. Besides, those would all be RHD. What about the rest of Europe, Africa, South America? But thanks for this info, I was unaware of what it takes to verify the year of a UK vehicle for importation. I wonder about other countries, or how many 83s were exported in LHD configuration.

I for one have been anxiously awaiting 2008 for this very reason. No point in spending huge dollars on a questionably 'legal' truck when just about anyone can get a truely legal 110 here in a year and a half. And for each year after that, more and more 110s and then 90s are importable. I would agree that for around ~20k you could have an unquestionably legal rebuilt 110 in excellent shape. I might not do it in 08 with an 83, but I do hope to start this type of project in the next few years.

Follow-up Post:

Just a quick search turned this one up on eBay UK:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...SI_PR4_PCN_BIX

50 GBP!!!
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  #62  
Old May 17th, 2006, 02:03 PM
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That, plus a 1983 truck really won't need that much to make it up to what most people want and will cost a lot less. As long as it was well maintained, it will be just like any other car project of that vintage, except you won't have to worry anywhere near as much about body rot, and many new production defender parts will be compatible with it.

They will be great project trucks for people who like to wrench, no doubt about it. The fact that you can put in the vast majority of modern Defender amenities without major component swapping doesn't hurt either.

-Hans
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  #63  
Old May 17th, 2006, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by souza
Lets not forget that the UK isn't the only place to find used Land Rover 110s. Besides, those would all be RHD. What about the rest of Europe, Africa, South America? But thanks for this info, I was unaware of what it takes to verify the year of a UK vehicle for importation. I wonder about other countries, or how many 83s were exported in LHD configuration.

Follow-up Post:

Just a quick search turned this one up on eBay UK:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...SI_PR4_PCN_BIX

50 GBP!!!
Exactly, Dave - you have the idea! That 83 would indeed make an excellent restoration project, so long as the owner has the V5 logbook. I agree that there would be LHD 110s in other markets, though in smaller numbers and so perhaps making it harder to find an 83, 84 or whatever. The thing is that in the UK you have both a reasonable chance of buying a cheap 83, as well as a wide range of specialist garages that can also get you your more late-model donor Defender, your galv chassis, and do all the rebuild work, then ship it to you. Conversion from RHD to LHD could easily be done, as all you really need to keep is the replacement (new) chassis plus the suspension and axles. The body panels, interior, bulkhead, and engine can be from anything - a 98, a 2005 whatever you can afford. Personally, given the cost of a new chassis and the labour to dismantle two trucks and rebuild one, I would not go in for this approach unless the finished article was a Tdi engine and a good body and interior with no major rot, say mid to late 90s. So that would be at least $15K USD all in, plus shipping etc. Maybe more now that the USD has weakened against the GBP. Still, even $20K for a fully-legal Tdi Defender 110 is a good deal compared to the other options! And you could also invest in other restoration work on the body etc while it is all in bits.
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  #64  
Old June 27th, 2006, 04:07 AM
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kit cars are a poor example most are built from US legal cars to begin with, then they have to meet certain standards.
you can't import kit cars without DOT aproval.
the NHTASA bans building a defender from parts, thats seperate from a frame swap so in essence you are commiting multible infractions. if you swap parts from a new car to a old one after a certain percentage it become a new car and has to be treated as such.
if you have to go to the DMV to change registration for a engine what makes you think you don't have to for a vin swap.
this isn't a loophole in the law it's a criminal activity.
what do you think is going to happen if you are in a wreck and someone is injured, insurance doesn't have to pay for it since your not in the vehicle they are insuring.

as for providing a sales reciept to prove it's not stolen all your proving is the series the vin plates came from was not stolen not the defender they are on. with your that logic i can buy a knackered old mercedes steal a 500sl swap vins then just show the receipt for the old one., YEA RIGHT KEEP DREAMING

THEWAP if you claim it is legal why did you lie and say it was a 66 to get it registered? you knew there was no 109 left in it. if it was legal as you claim why not tell tell the DMV what it really is? your title is only legal for a 109 not anything else.

well thanks for the laughs.
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  #65  
Old June 27th, 2006, 08:43 PM
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Just a quickie on this topic. Street Rodder magazine this month has a pretty big article on the whole custom rod registration issue. Pretty interesting read, highly recommended for this stuff.

-Hans
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  #66  
Old June 28th, 2006, 12:08 PM
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It never ceases to amaze me that within this tight knit group of guys, with similiar hobbies and interests, some can be such assholes when they post on this subject. I find it quite remarkable. By the way Sean, thanks for the post. it was very informative.
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  #67  
Old June 29th, 2006, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me that within this tight knit group of guys, with similiar hobbies and interests, some can be such assholes when they post on this subject. I find it quite remarkable. By the way Sean, thanks for the post. it was very informative.
Well Put..
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  #68  
Old June 29th, 2006, 02:03 PM
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never meant to seem that way, yea i seem a little harsh with my posts especially after a night of drinking. i love defenders, i just have something against the illegal iimported ones, if somebody buys one thinking it's legal and has a wreck that kills or seriously injures someone, insurance won't cover it and between the feds and personal lawsuits it could ruin their life, and the lives of the other drivers family.
the ECR rebuilds would be a better choice than risking a $250,000 fine and maybe more than that with personal lawsuits.
peace bro.
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  #69  
Old June 29th, 2006, 02:15 PM
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... right on.
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  #70  
Old June 29th, 2006, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
the ECR rebuilds would be a better choice .
Oh please please please do not bring me into this subject matter... please, or else the "anti-fan club" will jump in and start with their "too expensive" chants and that is so old news.

People will justify anything to get a Defender cheaper. They'll convince themselves they are doing the right thing. They'll swap VINs, they'll belive anything they read on eBay, they'll do just about anything and believe just about anyone if they are saying what they want to hear... Just let'm do it. Who cares. The more they import the more we may be able to work on down the road is my view.
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  #71  
Old June 30th, 2006, 10:21 AM
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i've seen newer 110's that have been re-VIN'd by the DMV. Florida, NC, UT...what about those? ReVIN'd as a rebuild, but still titled as a 1960's or 1970's 109. If the DMV had a compliance officer inspect it and issue it a new vin sticker which THEY affix to the vehicle...how is it not legal? just curious, we've all seen those.
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  #72  
Old June 30th, 2006, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roverboy
i've seen newer 110's that have been re-VIN'd by the DMV. Florida, NC, UT...what about those? ReVIN'd as a rebuild, but still titled as a 1960's or 1970's 109. If the DMV had a compliance officer inspect it and issue it a new vin sticker which THEY affix to the vehicle...how is it not legal? just curious, we've all seen those.
That, of course, makes it legal. In Ca., the CHP is charged with issuing new VIN # (not DMV) when it is warranted. However, I can't tell you how many times I've seen people come in for their appt with the VIN officer, then leave in handcuffs because it comes up stolen. Sometimes they know its stolen, sometimes they were conned by a seller and don't know.
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  #73  
Old June 30th, 2006, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roverboy
i've seen newer 110's that have been re-VIN'd by the DMV. Florida, NC, UT...what about those? ReVIN'd as a rebuild, but still titled as a 1960's or 1970's 109. If the DMV had a compliance officer inspect it and issue it a new vin sticker which THEY affix to the vehicle...how is it not legal? just curious, we've all seen those.
Technically the DOT considers a vehicle that has been so extensively changed as a "new production" vehicle and therefore it would need to meet all new standards. So "by the book" it isn't legal. Can you get away with it?... maybe, or even likely.
To the letter of the law if we take a 109, add a coil chassis, rebuild the entire thing with new bits and put a V8 5 speed in it the DOT would class that as "new production" and it would need to meet all new standards, but does anybody actually care or go through that? ... no.

Basically if your research everything to the letter of the law (Rovers or anything else for that matter) you can come up with some US laws somewhere that makes it wrong, but you can't live your life that way.
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  #74  
Old June 30th, 2006, 06:33 PM
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Whew!! Now I'm worn out.

I've been avoiding this thread for a while and just read it from the beginning.

Questions floating around in my teenie brain include:

- What is the objective here? Someone want a cheap Defender, can't stand the short windscreen of their
Series,or what?

- There seem to be a number of posters presuming that the builder would start with a collection of used
parts, that, ahem, managed to once upon a time be a single working vehicle.

- What's wrong with buying a collection of new bits from, say RDS, and assembling them, lets say with the
leftovers from one's '94 Discovery that he's owned since new, into something resembling a Defender of
indeterminate age?

Finally, an interesting fact .. ok, maybe only to me ... I know a guy locally who has owned a Series III 88" for years ... its Title says its a Triumph ?!

Thanks for entertaning me,

KAA

man, and I can't type either
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  #75  
Old June 30th, 2006, 08:21 PM
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I think the overall question is how to bring newer production Defenders into the US to own and drive. Motivation may vary as to why. Some people want the updated features and/or diesel engine. Some people want to save some money. Some really want a Defender 110, but can't afford what a genuine NAS truck goes for. And some folks are just really curious where these 2002 TD5's keep coming from that show up on E-bay and stuff.

The combining of "used parts" would all depend on what parts and where you live and what the state considers the pieces that define the vehicle age and requirements. Depending on the end result you will be subject to different safety, emissions and registration requirements. Then there is the question of insuring it, and what happens if you get into a really nasty accident and lawyers start looking closely at things. If you falsely registered the vehicle, and they find out, you could be facing financial liability as well as possible prosecution. You might get away with it in Tennessee.... but try getting past the emissions Referee in California, you may end up having it all confiscated.

The problem with combining leftovers from a Discovery into a Defender looking vehicle is that other than drivetrain, you'd basically need an entire Defender to do that. It would be cheaper to buy one probably. Then, after putting it all together, you still have to worry about the same problems as combining random parts.

Getting a vehicle of questionable history and unknown vintage registered so that you have license plates and a title is only part of the equation. But there are a lot of potential pitfalls to be aware of if you go that route. You may never have to worry about anything, but you may someday get stopped by a police officer who knows the difference between a shiny TD5 and a 1969 Series truck and is looking to impress his Captain.

-Hans
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  #76  
Old July 1st, 2006, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Oh please please please do not bring me into this subject matter... please, or else the "anti-fan club" will jump in and start with their "too expensive" chants and that is so old news.
<smile/>

We don't want to hate. But when you go to the UK website and price out a sick, brand new TD5 for < 40K, it's hard to choke down the 60K+ it takes to get something even close here.

_shrug_

Intensely frustrating.

Cheers,
prat
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  #77  
Old July 5th, 2006, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praetorian
<smile/>

We don't want to hate. But when you go to the UK website and price out a sick, brand new TD5 for < 40K, it's hard to choke down the 60K+ it takes to get something even close here.

_shrug_

Intensely frustrating.

Cheers,
prat
Totally agreed.. the supply and demand market makes prices crazy in the USA. So as the supply can't really change... you should all working on changing the demand. Tell everyone you see that they don't want a Defender and maybe over time the word will get around and prices will come down.


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  #78  
Old July 5th, 2006, 11:09 AM
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or start talking people into having kids. that seems to be a factor to a lot of defender owners as well.
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  #79  
Old July 5th, 2006, 04:35 PM
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Not for me!!!
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  #80  
Old February 7th, 2007, 12:13 PM
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Whats legal?

Admin note: The D-90 Source assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the following information. Site members are welcome to add or discuss, but please keep the thread factual.

This is not legal advice and I am not a lawyer licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Do not rely on this information for anything it is for informational and entertainment purposes only. Verify any information contained on this document with legal advice or consultation with the relevant state or federal authorities. Federal law is murky and state laws are often very different.

So you want a defender 110, but you don’t want to pay for an NAS.

There are several methods of accomplishing this task. All have some doubt about their illegality. There are only two known 100% ways to legally get a defender 110.
1. Buy a stock NAS 110
2. Wait a year or two and import an 1983 under the 25 year old DOT and 21 year EPA exemptions

Less than 100% legal ways, in reverse order of questionability:
1. Stretch an NAS D90
2. Buy a truck imported before the restrictions were enhanced
3. Rebuild a series truck to defender specifications
4. Rebuild something else, like a discovery or range rover to defender specifications
5. Build a defender from parts
6. Buy a complete defender without a drive train and import it as parts
7. Buy a complete defender and smuggle it in

Stretching an NAS D90 is the most legitimate way of getting a 110 on the list above. The problem with doing so is primarily state law. You may need to have it inspected post rebuild and you may need to produce parts receipts. EPA or DOT could take the position that, as a rebuilt vehicle, its build date is the date of rebuild and therefore it must meet the requirements of that year. In this case you are SOL as you do not have airbags and it will not meet emissions requirement for the current year.

Buying a legally imported grey market truck (roversnorth brought some in during the mid to late 80s) is likewise risky. The biggest problem is that most were not brought up to US spec when imported and the engines in them are not EPA certified. Thus, they are illegal under EPA and possibly DOT as well. A state is likely to be ok if you have an existing title from another state, but as the VIN is not a US VIN your new state might not title it.

Rebuilding a series truck or range rover to defender specs creates some problems as well. First, the extent of the rebuild is key. A restoration with newer parts is fine, but at some point there is little or nothing left of the original and you are essentially building a defender from parts and titling it using a series or range rover VIN number. If you can legitimately fit within the concept of rebuilding a series truck, it is ideal as EPA does not apply as it is more than 21 years old and pre 69ish there were no emissions requirements. Where this line is no one is sure. I you document everything in the rebuild and legitimately need to rebuild the vehicle, using all newer defender parts along with some of the originals is probably ok. However, again, your state may not like it and the same risk above that EPA or DOT will consider it a new manufactured vehicle is there. The difference between rebuilding a series or range rover into a defender and using an NAS 90 and stretching it, is mainly the difference in the amount of parts from the original vehicle that are retained. In the UK they have a points system for this (ie 2 points for the chassis, 1 point an axle, 1 for body, 1 for suspension, 1 for engine, 1 for transmission—something like that). If you do not have enough points you get a “Q” plate ie a manufactured vehicle. No such points system or guidelines exist in the US to my knowledge. States vary, but you may need receipts and you may need pictures to document the rebuild. Further, some states require an inspection for either safety, compliance with the rebuild laws, or to prevent stolen parts.

Building a defender from parts is clearly illegal under DOT and EPA. First, no rover diesels are EPA approved motors. Second, a vehicle build from parts is required to meet the requirements at the time of construction. Again, DOT sees these as illegal. Many states do permit “kit cars.” While state legal, they are not EPA and DOT legal and, therefore, you could have issues in the future. Also, your new state may not like the title in your old state when you go to sell or move.

The remaining options are dangerously close to VIN swapping, a felony. Parts are one thing, a complete vehicle is another matter. Again, where this line is unclear. Technically, no drive train in a vehicle amounts to “parts” for importation purposes. However, it is my understanding that you must not intend to reconstruct the vehicle, but rather use the parts to rebuilt an existing vehicle.

Simply importing one is illegal as well. It can be legally imported under various exemptions (non-US national, off road use only), but it cannot be registered legally in the US.

A side note:

Regarding repowering your defender with a 300Tdi, all rover diesels beyond the 2.25 and up to an including the 300Tdi are not EPA certified and are illegal for road use.
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