Whats legal? Frame Swaps, Importing, etc - Page 2 - Defender Source
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  #21  
Old May 9th, 2006, 04:18 PM
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Michael Slade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewap
For myself I cannot say wether Mountain Rovers or ECR or other builders and importers commit felonies.
ECR is totally legit. They're only doing 'frame stretches/replacements' and using original bulkheads. When that original bulkhead rots out and needs replacing, that's another issue for down the road a bit.

I dunno anything about Mountain Rovers.
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  #22  
Old May 9th, 2006, 04:18 PM
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I'm gonna add one more thing to clarify something I said. 99% of VIN switches are done to conceal a stolen vehicle. People that steal vehicles for a living as part of an organized ring are often armed and dangerous which is why it is SOP for law enforcement to draw their weapon. Is a Land Rover enthusiast driving a grey-market 110 a threat? Probably not. Can a cop tell the difference between the two at a glance? No.
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  #23  
Old May 9th, 2006, 04:36 PM
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one down side is an insurance claim will only get you the NADA value of a Series truck....right around $7k by Geico's best numbers....but you will be able to buy it back for $500. I have plenty of documentation and my rig truely was built from parts in three stages (including three different frames and two different bulkheads) and rolled twice, got t-boned by a Grand Cheroke and got totalled by an AUDI quattro over the last 10 years. I built my junk to keep my NAS 90 out of the woods...funny thing is that NAS and later another one has come and gone...


NY has a procedure for replacing the major VIN carrying component when it is rusted out or beyond repair....

Heck...most people think it's a Scout anyway..
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  #24  
Old May 9th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Eric Siepmann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewap
I understand that vin switching is illegal. But is building a truck under a salvaged title illegal? One can upgrade a 109 to modern standards legally. One can also swap frames legally. And who is to say that the frame on my 110 is not a 109 customized to a 110 ? not even I really knows the truth to that detail. Does that warrant sticking a gun in ones face?
The D90 site seems to hold in reverence anything to do with diesel conversion re-powering of NAS Diesels. Knowing for a fact that the engines are not EPA approved, and cannot be imported in full cars in the US. Importing the engines
as parts and sticking them into NAS D90's doesn't seem to bother anyone here. What do you guys tell the DMV when you are re-titling to diesel engine specs? does that warrant getting a gun stuck in your face? or is it " as long as the requirements are met" kind of deal. I never saw anyone on this forum harping about a felony on that one, or sticking to the rules of original equipment. Does that mean that all hybrids should be subject to extreme scrutiny? or that customizing a D90 should be done with all safety rules applied and proofs of original equipment? how does sliders, stainless steel exhausts, winch bumpers, roof racks, super chargers, intercoolers etc.. rate as "original equipment?
You seem confused. No such thing as an NAS Diesel to begin with. Everything you addressed is aftermarket which may or may not be addressed by your state of domicile. And most state laws for changing or modifying vehicles aren't felonious as you would imply unless you do something very drastic.

Your ignoring several things with the swaps in general as well. The EPA does not regulate importation and it's rules govern mostly OEM situations. Swaps are left to the state in question. So if your State like mine doesn't have a problem with it and the diesel complies to a higher standard such as euro emissions then there is no issue.

Seems to have a lot to do with your truck. Seems like your truck is VIN swapped and therefore the future buyer may be liable for the felony. Statements such as your title claims just appear to gloss over the reality of the situation for a potential buyer. You have a truck will some serious provenance issues that could bite buyer and seller in the ass.

I can't speak for anyone else but I do modify my truck in light of the laws of the State of Illinois. If you check your insurance you can be refused coverage for illegalites on your truck. Get in an accident and you could be left in the cold holding a hot bag of steaming shit. Common sense really. I like insurance, no potential for tickets/arrest, and a capable truck. Not rocket science...
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  #25  
Old May 9th, 2006, 05:10 PM
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Ok, one more thing... Anyone wanting a definitive answer on this stuff regarding your own state's laws should go to your local DMV office or the library and get a copy of the state vehicle code. It'll be a book about 6 inches thick and it will have all the laws regarding salvage titles, VINs, modifications, etc. If you still have questions after that, contact the Highway Patrol (or State Police) and ask to speak to the VIN officer.
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  #26  
Old May 9th, 2006, 05:16 PM
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you know what the real test is?....drive it into Canada and back....
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  #27  
Old May 9th, 2006, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyman
you know what the real test is?....drive it into Canada and back....
BTDT...
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  #28  
Old May 9th, 2006, 06:01 PM
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me too...
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  #29  
Old May 9th, 2006, 06:21 PM
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Well I am not confused. I know there is no such thing as a Diesel NAS Defender, I was trying to make a point. I also do not believe that building a truck from a salvaged vin# part whether bulkhead or frame, is felonious. All parts are interchangaeble on the Defender line of Land Rovers. I also believe that all the components you addressed concerning my 110 can also be considered aftermarket parts, bulkheads or frames. Thats the confusing part of where to draw the line on salvaged Vin# and titles.

So, if someone wants to build a truck from scatch using only parts, and does not salvage a vin, does that mean that classic cars are all kit cars? I was under the impression that classic hot rods were vinned from salvaged classic parts. Then upgrade once titled. Felony?

Now I know that all claim ECR is legit and that they use original bulkheads to build cars. But what does that mean?
a used bulkhead? an NAS bulkhead, an import NOS bulkhead?, it is my understanding that they are able to build a NEW
110 from all new parts here in the US. Does that mean they are using salvaged titles to build non NAS trucks, or are they building new trucks with new parts at NAS specs to meet Sate requirements?.
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  #30  
Old May 9th, 2006, 06:30 PM
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The cool thing about building a truck from scratch is that if you do your homework you can do it legitimately. If you go to sell it, you don't have to prove to everyone that what you did was 'legit'. The only person that needs to know and ought to care what you have done is the person purchasing your truck. To try to prove to everyone that lives in each state what you did in your own state is futile. I'd suggest that you quit trying.
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  #31  
Old May 9th, 2006, 07:10 PM
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times 2
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  #32  
Old May 10th, 2006, 04:28 AM
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Vern Lawrence
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Being that I am stationed in the UK and in LOVE with my 110. If it could cook and clean, I would be in haven. (Just kidding if the wife reads this)

I have looked into bringing a newer 110 back to the US with me. Not going to happen as I am not willing to have it impounded and crushed at the port.

I have extended to stay in England until 2008 that makes my 110, 25 years old and do not have to worry about the import. So I am now in the process of rebuilding my 1983 Land Rover 110 from the ground up.

It will only be 11/2 year till the first 110ís will be 25 years old and then you will see a flood of 110 being imported into the US.



Why didnít this subject come up during this post (Best way across the US) http://www.defendersource.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7004

1984 red right hand drive 3.5 V8 4 speed Defender 110 from East Coast Rovers in Maine
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  #33  
Old May 10th, 2006, 07:36 AM
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Scott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewap
Now I know that all claim ECR is legit and that they use original bulkheads to build cars. But what does that mean?
a used bulkhead? an NAS bulkhead, an import NOS bulkhead?, it is my understanding that they are able to build a NEW
110 from all new parts here in the US. Does that mean they are using salvaged titles to build non NAS trucks, or are they building new trucks with new parts at NAS specs to meet Sate requirements?.
My understanding when I was looking for info: ECR starts out with a NAS truck. This is completely legit. Then they rip into it and fix it up (probably keeping the bulkhead and whatever else, replacing a few pieces, modifying a few pieces). I believe they keep the v8 as they have withdrawn (publicly) from the diesel motor swap game. [Not sure if they will do one or not - likely they will if you cough up enough $].
Key is they start out with a NAS truck and sorta finish up with a NAS truck. This is different from taking your '66 109 and turning it into a '04 110.
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  #34  
Old May 10th, 2006, 08:40 AM
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"I also do not believe that building a truck from a salvaged vin# part whether bulkhead or frame, is felonious."

The difference is that a chassis from a 109 which brought the title to the project was not used- unless your D110 has leaf springs. Otherwise, why couldn't I bring over a new "real" Mini and just stick a VIN from a junked old one on it and call it legal? Oh wait, lots of people do that- still illegal.
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  #35  
Old May 10th, 2006, 08:50 AM
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But - you could buy a brand new MGB bodyshell from British Motor Heritage group and use it to rebuild your rusted out MGB - they are unibody cars so there is no seperate frame. I've had friends replace the frames on their Lotus Elans because the old ones rust out and how many Series trucks have had to have both frames and bulkheads replaced. Or how can anyone build a "32 Ford" from components sourced entirely out of the latest issue of Hot Rod magazine. These things are like Washingtons axe - the handle has been replaced six times and the head twice but its still the same axe - it's all a matter of interpertation and intent.
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  #36  
Old May 10th, 2006, 10:00 AM
Eric Siepmann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackW
But - you could buy a brand new MGB bodyshell from British Motor Heritage group and use it to rebuild your rusted out MGB - they are unibody cars so there is no seperate frame. I've had friends replace the frames on their Lotus Elans because the old ones rust out and how many Series trucks have had to have both frames and bulkheads replaced. Or how can anyone build a "32 Ford" from components sourced entirely out of the latest issue of Hot Rod magazine. These things are like Washingtons axe - the handle has been replaced six times and the head twice but its still the same axe - it's all a matter of interpertation and intent.

I believe everyone understands the sum of the parts arguement. The parts are not subject to importation restraint, EPA and a slew of other issues. Nor is there any issue with assembling the parts into a whole defender. You just have to properly research, execute, and title it IMO.

This is not the same as taking a 109 title and applying it to what amounts to a new and entirely different vehicle. That's VIN Swappping and it is indeed illegal. Slight difference but that is the letter of the law. The intent is what is the key factor here. If you buy a 109 frame and then defenderize it is not the same as taking a title from one vehicle and applying to another. You can buy a coil 109 chasis and throw all 110 parts on it and it's OK. Separate the title add intent to create what amounts to a new 110 and there is a difference that causes you to break a law. Black and white. Not really rocket science at all.

It's also difficult to make a comparison to the hot rod or muscle car community as well. Apples to oranges IMO. Never researched it and don't even know how they are titled even in IL. I would assume a professional builder would be able to provide title as a manufacturer. But there are big differences to the defender builds. Hot-rodders want a 32 ford or a 69 camero and they advertize it as restored refurbished 32 or camero. They don't begin with the idea of taking a 32 title and trying to pass it off as a new viper for example. Huge difference in intent there.
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  #37  
Old May 10th, 2006, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT94D90
Dave - A little of both, I guess. In your example, I think you would have a problem. If you end up with different VINs on the vehicle (one on the frame doesn't match one on the body) then you have a problem. At the very least it would be impounded and gone over with a fine tooth comb if that was discovered.

Under the rules you spoke about that does not seem correct. If a frame were replaced then I think only proof of purchase of the frame in question would be necessary to provide, to prove the frame was not stolen. And maybe cut the leg off the original frame with the VIN# attached to demonstrate that the work was completed as claimed.

As far as I am concerned at the state level their job is to make sure that the vehicle is not stolen. Not enforce Federal mandates. If they fear the vehicle to be unsafe to use thier states highways then they should forward the issue to the correct Federal office.

This is going to continue to be a 'Grey' subject, even as more information is provided. I agree the kit car approach is the most legitament. It seems to be less of a deception.

JP
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  #38  
Old May 10th, 2006, 11:34 AM
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You can replace any parts or all parts on your truck with new or used parts from other trucks. YOu just can not use all parts from one singe truck (if you use all the parts from one truck, you are tecnically vin swapping). If you rebuild your truck with all new parts, all you are doing is customizing your truck to your specs. You do have to have receipts showing you purchased parts from different places not just a truck and swapped stuff over.

What about this?? If you guys watch Muscle Car on TV, they are building a brand new 69 camaro from all new parts right out of the box. I would think that if they took the vin off of a rusted old Camaro and put it on the new car, I would be ok as long as the other car was destroyed and scrapped..
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  #39  
Old May 10th, 2006, 11:38 AM
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The whole problem with us debating the minutia of this is that we aren't the final say on this. When crossing the border into the USA it's up to US Customs, who are enforcing federal law. Then it becomes a state issue, which has 50 different sets of possible laws + Puerto Rico. It really would require a long bit of research by a lawyer to figure out how to get you a legal truck, and then who knows what happens when you cross state borders. Plus there will generally be some issues you need to modify such as lighting and possibly an airbag.

Too much work for my taste, as with many other people. This is why the genuine NAS trucks are keeping their value so well, because it is so hard to import other trucks and it's not going to increase the number of trucks in the US by enough to make a big deal.

I don't even WANT to know the hoops you would have to jump through in New Jersey or California.

-Hans
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  #40  
Old May 10th, 2006, 01:56 PM
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My question has always been - how are some of these "32 Fords" registered when they are built up using a new frame from a supplier in Hot Rod, a crate OHV V-8 engine, automatic transmission, disc brakes, air conditioning and a steel or fiberglass body - every bit of it bought brand new and assembled in some guys garage. If its a 32 Ford Replica and that's what its registered as and that's legal who's to say that you can't build a 109 "replica" using a V-8, coil springs, disc brakes and even an automatic transmission and call it a 1966 Land Rover
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