Whats legal? Frame Swaps, Importing, etc - Page 12 - Defender Source
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  #221  
Old December 19th, 2009, 09:21 AM
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Ken Jackson
1985 110 Wagon
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June 1985 110 import

I have a June 1985 110 Station Wagon in the Middle East, rather than take a chance on it being rejected or shipping to the UK for a few months and then re-ship to the US, as a green card holder I could bring it in as a temporary import good for one year and then when it hits 25 years drive to Canada and import it legally. It has to be shipped from the Gulf shortly storing it there till June is not an opition. Does anyone see any flaws in this plan.
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  #222  
Old December 19th, 2009, 11:52 AM
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you shoud be able to get it in on Jan 1st 2010, as regristration date is not build date!
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  #223  
Old December 29th, 2009, 03:33 PM
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I thought I would add this post as, being a US focused website, many people are unfamiliar with the UK "points" system regarding vehicle identity.

It works basically like this:

There are a possible total of 14 points of which you have to retain 8 points to maintain the vehicle's identity:

1 Point for the engine.
5 Points for the chassis.
2 Points for the transmission.
2 Points for the steering assembly.
2 Points for the suspension
2 Points for the axles.
= 14 Points in total.

The wrinkle with this is that a "direct replacement part" counts toward your total points so if you buy a new chassis from land rover and install it in your 83/84/85 land rover (even if you galvanize it) you still get your 5 points (you do not get the points for a used chassis that came from another truck). There appears to be some debate whether it has to be from land rover or if another source is ok, but I leave that to the UK folks to sort out. The same applies for other parts: new "parts" from land rover or others that are a direct replacement count toward your total. So what does this mean:

500ukp clapped out 1984 110
New galvanized chassis
New suspension
Original or new steering column or axles and you have your 8 points. Of course, the fact that the rest of the truck is a new ROW spec vehicle is of no consequence to the UK authorities.

In the UK this matters for tax purposes more than anything on series trucks and to avoid a "Q" plate on newer trucks. However, what remains unclear to me, is whether the US sees things -- or would honor -- the UK system for imports. I know I have seen some like this come in, but I am wondering if anyone has any feedback from the .gov about it. (I will not rehash the debate about how non-original engines cannot be imported because that was addressed above) and I offer no opinion as to whether this is kosher or not with the .gov, but I thought I would add it to the thread as it seems to be happening. Personally, once it got here I would be fine with driving something like this around.

Ron

not legal advice
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  #224  
Old July 8th, 2010, 08:46 PM
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Wow that was long but informative. It would be a great addition to the thread if people with successful importation (parts or complete vehicles would share names and contact info of the agents they used shipping lines, expediters etc who made it all run smoothly (and those to avoid who were a nightmare . ;-) Just a thought to throw a bone to the people who make our hobby easier to enjoy.
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  #225  
Old July 8th, 2010, 08:49 PM
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Tony Brooks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Velardi View Post
Wow that was long but informative. It would be a great addition to the thread if people with successful importation (parts or complete vehicles would share names and contact info of the agents they used shipping lines, expediters etc who made it all run smoothly (and those to avoid who were a nightmare . ;-) Just a thought to throw a bone to the people who make our hobby easier to enjoy.
Easy enough: Crowther.
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  #226  
Old July 8th, 2010, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Abrooks View Post
Easy enough: Crowther.
x2

Doug makes it happen. His fee is laughably low compared to the possible headaches and this from someone who is notoriously cheap ie me.

www.dividingcreekroverimports.com
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  #227  
Old July 10th, 2011, 06:02 PM
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Jason
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Manufacture date?

Quick question: where is the manufacture date provided? Is it in the logbook, on the motor, etc? What does customs use to validate ?

Thx!
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  #228  
Old July 10th, 2011, 06:32 PM
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Dave McHenry
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it's the logbook. i also got the historical certificate from the hertiage motor center in the uk.
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  #229  
Old July 10th, 2011, 09:24 PM
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Gustavo
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If I am not mistaken Customs care at the original Registration date on the V5, not the manufactured date
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  #230  
Old July 10th, 2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
If I am not mistaken Customs care at the original Registration date on the V5, not the manufactured date
From prior conversations with Doug, I believe the manufacture date can be used to supercede the reg date...and really, if you read the NHTSA docs (http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/impo...l#Anchor-48862) you'll see under #8 it also agrees with date of manufacture.

I think it's just generally "easier" to use the reg date, rather than spend $40-50 (plus the time to get the certificate) and wait for the Certif of Manufacture from Heritage Motors.

------ Follow up post added July 10th, 2011 09:40 PM ------

8. Importing a vehicle that is at least 25 years old.

A motor vehicle that is at least 25 years old can be lawfully imported into the U.S. without regard to whether it complies with all applicable FMVSS. Such a vehicle would be entered under Box 1 on the HS-7 Declaration form to be given to Customs at the time of importation. If you wish to see that form, you may download a copy from our website at www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import. You should note that the 25 year period runs from the date of the vehicle's manufacture. If the date of manufacture is not identified on a label permanently affixed to the vehicle by its original manufacturer, to establish the age of the vehicle, you should have documentation available such as an invoice showing the date the vehicle was first sold or a registration document showing that the vehicle was registered at least 25 years ago. Absent such information, a statement from a recognized vehicle historical society identifying the age of the vehicle could be used.
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'71 Series IIA
'88 127 #F96 DKN
'94 90 NAS #324
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  #231  
Old July 10th, 2011, 10:56 PM
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Gustavo
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Perhaps Doug can educate us, and if your point is valid, why do we need to wait till December 2011 for a vehicle 1986 registered December 1986, but manufactured January 1986?

Also Heritage Motors all they do is write a letter they do not provide an MCO
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  #232  
Old July 11th, 2011, 12:38 AM
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Jason
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8. Importing a vehicle that is at least 25 years old.
A motor vehicle that is at least 25 years old can be lawfully imported into the U.S. without regard to whether it complies with all applicable FMVSS. Such a vehicle would be entered under Box 1 on the HS-7 Declaration form to be given to Customs at the time of importation. If you wish to see that form, you may download a copy from our website at www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import. You should note that the 25 year period runs from the date of the vehicle's manufacture. If the date of manufacture is not identified on a label permanently affixed to the vehicle by its original manufacturer, to establish the age of the vehicle, you should have documentation available such as an invoice showing the date the vehicle was first sold or a registration document showing that the vehicle was registered at least 25 years ago. Absent such information, a statement from a recognized vehicle historical society identifying the age of the vehicle could be used.

rules say date of manufacture

what im running into is engine is stamped november 1986, but it is documented as "1987 model year"

so i think the above could be interpreted as date stamped on vehicle trumps physical documents?
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  #233  
Old July 11th, 2011, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
Perhaps Doug can educate us, and if your point is valid, why do we need to wait till December 2011 for a vehicle 1986 registered December 1986, but manufactured January 1986?

Also Heritage Motors all they do is write a letter they do not provide an MCO
The main issue - I believe - is that the "date of manufacture" is not readily accessible UNLESS you go for some historical documentation like the Heritage Motor Certificate. So probably it's just easier for most folks to use the reg date.

The reality as well is that certainly a vehicle COULD be manufactured in January '86 and not registered until December '86...but probably more than likely it's only a couple months before the reg date. So most folks either don't know about the manufacture date, or just use the reg date for simplicity.
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'71 Series IIA
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  #234  
Old July 11th, 2011, 01:04 PM
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David Short
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Manufuacture date not registration date. If you think about MOD vehicles.... those are built and the MOD bangs on them for 10 years or more before they are released to the public and finally "registered".

The Heritgage Certificate is the way to go. I have used that twice as the proof of age document.
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  #235  
Old August 17th, 2011, 11:35 AM
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While generally defenders must be 25 years old for importation, there is a process by which models similar to the NAS defenders may be approved for importation. Here is an NHTSA decision allowing the importation of certain non-conforming 1997 Defender 90 models not produced for the US market. I note that it also includes a LRNA response regarding the reason for the discontinuation of importation due to the lack of automatic restraint systems. See:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2005/05-15480.htm




------ Follow up post added August 17th, 2011 11:20 AM ------

I thought a technical discussion of the relevant federal law may be interesting. Of course, one should realize that the US Code and federal regulations will play a role in addition to state statutory law and rule regarding titling,safety and emissions.

This may or may not be of interest, depending on previous research on the subject posted here. I thought I would touch on the United States Code requirements, or restrictions rather, for importation of non-conforming vehicles. The most common exception is found in 49 U.S.C. 30112(b)(9), regarding non-application of restrictions for vehicles 25 years or older. See http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...2----000-.html

Also, of interest is the good faith purchaser exception to the applicability of the section of law. While there may be other prohibitory law on the subject, this particular section is not applicable to a buyer who essentially purchases without knowledge of illegality in good faith. That exception can be found at the above link at 49 U.S.C. 30112(b)(2). That particular provision may be of interest given the "rebuilt" vehicles being sold in the US and potentially to members here.

It would seem that clarification is also needed as to what actually would be considered a legally rebuilt vehicle with mixed-age parts. Any one have any federal law or regulations on the subject?
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  #236  
Old August 17th, 2011, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
It would seem that clarification is also needed as to what actually would be considered a legally rebuilt vehicle with mixed-age parts. Any one have any federal law or regulations on the subject?
As it pertains to what? Legality of import or legality on the street once imported to the US?

My take is if you meet the federal standards for import of a 25 year old vehicle, and then modify the vehicle legally per state law in which you register/modify, you should be free and clear.

How many '69 Camaros are there with new disc brakes, modified engine, and modified chassis? No one is going after people doing domestic 25 year old retro upgrades, as long as they do it legally (ie., "rebuilt" on title etc).
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  #237  
Old August 17th, 2011, 04:10 PM
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That would seem logical, but the law may not be so clear. For example, if a certain percentage of parts are new that vehicle may not be considered legal. Simply because a vehicle is assembled here out of parts does not allow one to circumvent federal law.

As to being "free and clear" regarding state law, I agree that for most states that would be the case for a rebuild on an old chassis. Of course, I am not sure that anyone has done a complete state-by-state review of applicable law so this too is a generalization.

The real problems I am attempting to address are federal law and importation issues. Reading some of the information here, it seems that there may be confusion as to state titling of a vehicle equating to the legality of the vehicle under federal law.

I hope to spend some time looking into the issue, but thought I would see if anyone else had done so. Specifically, federal law regarding the construction of non-conforming vehicles from new parts on an old chassis. To be clear, I am speaking about vehicles being constructed mainly of parts from non-conforming Land Rovers newer than 25 years. There appears to be more and more of these available and it would be useful to compile information related to actual federal requirements. I am relatively sure federal law will not allow for circumvention by incorporating a few older parts, 25 years or older, with all other parts being from a non-conforming defender or defenders being newer than 25 years. "Nonconforming" refers to those vehicles not eligible for import as cited in the post above related to 49 U.S.C. 30112(b)(9).

Any insight? Is there law expressly referring to the chassis as being controlling relative to age? I doubt this to be the case.
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  #238  
Old August 18th, 2011, 04:08 PM
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In looking into these issues further, I came across a NHTSA decision regarding a petition for importation of non-conforming 94-95 Defender 90 models.

What I find interesting is that this allows for the importation of the pick-up version as well as the station wagon. There is a bit of an extensive list of modifications required, but for anyone interested in importing a 94-95 pick-up the requirements are clearly described. See:
http://www.federalregister.gov/artic...passenger#p-68

By the way, for those that are not familiar with the Federal Register it is the official publication method for federal agencies including NHTSA.
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  #239  
Old August 18th, 2011, 04:56 PM
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how the f**k do you measure a percentage of parts of a vehicle anyway? If they are going to use that as a determining factor than the criteria need to be spelled out so that people can attempt to meet the criteria. if it is arbitrary, then I would think the preise would not hold up under legal scrutiny.
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  #240  
Old August 18th, 2011, 05:35 PM
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Who is SkyTop Rover and why did they object to the importation?
What about the GVW? Isn't a D90 a little under 2700kg?
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