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  #1  
Old January 26th, 2009, 02:31 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
NAS 94 Defender 90
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94 D90 not starting - New post / poster

Hello all,

This is my first post to the forum but I've been reading it for quite a while. Similar threads have been very helpful so far, but I've reached a point where I need some additional help.

A little background... I have a 94 D90 NAS that won't start. The engine turns and turns but wont fire up. I have spark and air, but no gas. The fuel pump doesn't turn on when the key is turned to position two, so no fuel. I have checked (and replaced for good measure) all fuses.

I've swapped the two matching bosch relays and no change. I've tried replacing the fuel pump relay with another generic 5-pin relay (I know that you need an exact match so you don't have a power drain, but thought this would be a good quick check) but no change.

I have checked the inertia switch and it wasn't tripped. I used a wire to bypass the inertia switch, and nothing.

I checked for loose connections at the fuel pump, coil, ignition switch, relay, inertia switch, and everything looks good.

I lowered the tank a bit and pulled the connection at the pump. everything looks good but I'm not getting power at the pump, so I started checking to see if I have power everywhere else. I have power coming into the fuel pump relay but don't get power at the inertia switch when I turn the key.

If I understand it correctly, power goes from the relay to the inertia switch through the white and purple wire. Could someone tell me what tells the relay to send power to the inertia switch then pump?

Should I try to bypass the relay to make sure the pump works? Any other ideas of what I should do?

Thanks so much.
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  #2  
Old January 26th, 2009, 05:14 PM
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Gary
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Yes. Try and run jump power to the fuel pump directly from the battery. If it works, that will eliminate the pump as the problem.
Then you can focus on wiring gremlins, connection problems, et al. (Is your fuel guage still working?)
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  #3  
Old January 26th, 2009, 05:45 PM
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Andrew Najarian
'93 NAS D110 #43
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I would try to jumper the relay and see if that turns it on. If it does, you know the problem is the trigger wire to the relay. Use a meter on the trigger to see if you are getting power to it. If you are getting power to the trigger then the relay must be bad. If you aren't, there is something wrong with the trigger. Either the wire or something else. I don't remember, but the trigger might come from the ecu directly which would mean that either the ecu is bad or there is a bad connection or the wire is broken. Anyway, I would try testing that trigger wire and jumper the relay to see if the pump comes on.
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  #4  
Old January 26th, 2009, 05:55 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
NAS 94 Defender 90
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Thanks for the quick responses...

The fuel gage is working.

I'll jumper the relay tonight and see if the pump works, but how do I check the trigger? Which one is the trigger wire?
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  #5  
Old January 26th, 2009, 06:21 PM
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Andrew Najarian
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I'm not sure which one it is, but assuming it is just a regular 4 wire relay you should have a 12v, gnd, wire to the pump (inertia switch) and the trigger wire.
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  #6  
Old January 26th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
NAS 94 Defender 90
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It's a 5 pin relay, but I should be able to figure it out. I'll give it a shot tonight and let you know.

Thanks so much...
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  #7  
Old January 27th, 2009, 12:04 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
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Location: Portland, OR, USA
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Ok.. So I jumpered the relay and the fuel pump fired up, so I at least know the fuel pump isn't the problem. I looked and looked for a problem with the wire coming from the ECU (trigger wire) and couldn't find anything wrong. If it was the ECU itself, wouldn't the check engine light stay on, or wouldn't there be other functions affected? Has anyone tried to replace a single wire from the ECU connector? Where should I go from here?

Thanks...

Follow-up Post:

Another thought I'm having... If I can't find a problem with the wires/connections from the ECU to the relay, would it be a good idea to jump power around the relay to the inertia switch while wiring in a manual cutoff switch inbetween? That way I could turn the fuel pump on and off myself but it would still switch off at the inertia switch during an accident. This would be a cheaper fix than buying another ECU. Would this be ok?

Thanks
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  #8  
Old January 27th, 2009, 12:56 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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I don't think it's a good idea to keep the fuel pump on all the time since the ECU toggles it on and off (i think?) via the relay. If I was in your shoes I would triple check that the generic relays you bought have exactly the right wiring. When I had very similar issues I bought what I thought were correct, generic 5 pin relays from advance auto and they turned out to be different from the rover relays.

If I were you I would order some new rover relays from AB, Rovers North, etc. and know that they are correct. If they end up not working, you can totally eliminate that variable and you'll have spare relays for WHEN your current relays crap out.

Also, if you've got a voltmeter you can pull the relay and look at the connector that goes to the ECU. Check to see if the contact that supplies power to the coil on the relay (you can check the diagram on the side of the relay for the coil) gets 12V when you turn the key to the ON position. If you don't get 12V for a several seconds to the coil portion of the relay you need to look further upstream.

Side note, do the warning lights on the dash come on when you have the key in the on position??
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  #9  
Old January 27th, 2009, 01:04 PM
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Andrew Najarian
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Were you able to verify that the relay does indeed get its signal from the ecu? Also, what is the fifth wire? Could it be your problem? You could wire in your own switch, but that is really a hack fix for whatever is wrong. If it turns out you need an ecu you should be able to find a used one inexpensively. In fact, I believe another member of this board has one available right now...do a search and you should find the thread. Can anyone else chime in that knows the fuel circuit inside and out?
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  #10  
Old January 27th, 2009, 04:34 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
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Thanks for the responses.

I have two new Bosch relays coming later this week. I don't think that's the problem, but just wanted to be sure. It also never hurts to have spare parts.

The warning lights and check engine light all come on when I turn the key as normal. They then go off after a few seconds, as normal. The ECU isn't throwing any codes either. I'll check the connector that attaches at the relay's coil when the key is turned. I'm pretty sure I did this before, but can't recall for sure. If nothing there, there may be a break in the wire, or the ECU isn't sending power to the relay. Other than splicing in a new wire as close to the ecu as possible, I can't think of any real way of checking wether it's the ECU or the wire. Has anyone here done any fixes to the ECU connector? It doesn't look like it would be too easy to mess with.

Any other ideas? How much did you see that ECU selling for? I haven't been able to find anything inexpensive.

Thanks
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  #11  
Old January 27th, 2009, 04:49 PM
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Andrew Najarian
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The easiest way to check the wire itself would be to just do a continuity test from one end to the other. I thought I just saw one for around $50 but I could be wrong. I think there was just one on ebay too, but I don't recall how much it was going for, or if it ended already. First things first though, make sure you need one. Make absolutely sure that the ecu is indeed bad and not repairable. The last thing you want to do is replace it and then find out it still won't start.
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  #12  
Old January 27th, 2009, 04:56 PM
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Mike Doligalski
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I agree with Andrew... if you end up going in the ECU direction make absolutely certain that it's the culprit. I've heard several times now that the computer is very rarely the problem so I would make it low on my checklist.


When i was having similar issues someone suggested checking the wires on the ignition coil (http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ad.php?t=17207). In the end that wasn't my problem but maybe it will help you out. For me, when I checked the coil I found out I also wasn't getting power to the ignition coil so I had to trace back further to the ignition switch.
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  #13  
Old January 27th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
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I'll try to dig into that ECU connector tonight and test the wire. I've got my fingers crossed that it isn't the ECU.

Thanks guys.
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  #14  
Old January 27th, 2009, 06:10 PM
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Gary
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Before you swap out the ECU...
You might try contacting Doug Shipman, (Ship's Mechanical, on NE 135th Ave in Pdx) if you are unable to sort it out.
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  #15  
Old January 27th, 2009, 06:32 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
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Thanks for the tip. I'll give him a call if I can't get it going.
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  #16  
Old January 27th, 2009, 11:11 PM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
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So I just did some testing and found that I get 12v from the ecu at the relay connector when I turn the key, and if I jump the relay, that 12v makes it to the inertia switch and on to the fuel pump. So I guess it may turn out to be the relays afterall. The bummer of it is that I ordered the 2 relays from a place back east and they said I'd have them at the end of the week, but I just got an email saying they're back ordered and won't ship for a week or two.
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  #17  
Old January 28th, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Mike Doligalski
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Bummer on the relays but at least you're on the way to solving your problem. You could always cancel that order and order from another rover vendor... these relays are very common problems so most people keep them on hand. I think AB has some for $22ea although not genuine bosch. If you're really in a pinch go visit the local rover stealer.
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  #18  
Old January 29th, 2009, 02:38 AM
Kilgore503
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Nathan Turpen
NAS 94 Defender 90
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I got it running. It was the relays. Good learning experience..

It also gave me an excuse to replace the plugs and air filter as well. She's never started up so quickly and strongly. Thanks for all the help guys... Couldn't have done it without this site. You guys are great.
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