Which is more powerful.. 2.4 puma or 300TDI? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old August 6th, 2011, 01:42 PM
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Question Which is more powerful.. 2.4 puma or 300TDI?

Curious about this. Also which motor do you guys think is better overall? Thanks

Neil
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  #2  
Old August 6th, 2011, 05:58 PM
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A quick search suggests 111hp for the 300tdi and 120 hp for the 2.4 tdci.................
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  #3  
Old August 6th, 2011, 06:03 PM
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Do you want to be able to work on it yourself? Do you want simplicity? If you do, I think the 300Tdi is the way to go.
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  #4  
Old August 6th, 2011, 06:34 PM
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Two totally different engines.

The Tdi is 99% purely mechanical... the only electrical bits are alternator,starter and fuel solenoid on the FIP (all of which can be removed/run without)

Puma is totally electronic, needs an ECU, high pressure in tank pump, drive by wire throttle pedal, and will need most of the dash guages etc to make it run (and so that YOU can see what it's doing)

not saying the puma is bad, it's just "new" whereas Tdi is old 90's technology.

If you're playing out in the bush, then a Tdi would probably be best for maintenance, that said, the things that go wrong with a Tdi, aside from the fuel lift pump and cam belt snapping, would need a workshop anyway (head off, injection pump dead etc) so probably no worse than a puma.

the puma will need diagnostic eqpt to install injectors, check fault codes, adjust alarm settings etc. if you really wanted one, you'd be better off to buy a comlete smashed vehicle and strip all the parts off, as you'll need stuff from the fuel tank forward.. pipes, harness, gearbox (6 speed; R380/LT77 won't fit) transmission tunnel, floor plates, dash, radiator etc etc etc

half way house is a Td5.... not quite as modern and fickle as the puma. certainly more tunable. can use the r380, and R380 floor plates. can be grafted to older pre Td5 dash. parts are cheaper and more easily available than the puma, only because it's older and there are more smashed/rotten ones out there.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 02:59 AM
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Issues of maintenance and availability aside, the Puma is a much more drivable vehicle than a 300 tdi truck. The Puma is quieter, smoother, will accelerate up hill in 6th gear and has no trouble hitting its 83mph speed limiter. I haven't driven a Puma 90, but the Puma keeps the 110 from being genuinely pokey, like a tdi 110 can be. A Puma 90 might be almost quick.
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  #6  
Old August 7th, 2011, 06:04 AM
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I'm warming up to modern diesels for sure. Yes there are some electronics but they do keep the thing running efficiently, and being electonically fueled they can be easily and more importantly , correctly tuned..... Unlike the 300 which for better or worse seems to keep running in the most rotten state of tune.
Seems that many 300's I see in the shop now have been *tweaked* and are ridiculously over fueled. They are usually in for some sort of overheating issue and the head gasket is generally failed and the head and one or more pistons are cracked .
Electronics have come a long way in the last couple of decades.
That said I'm pretty sure my 300 will not be getting replaced and it will probably outlive me.
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  #7  
Old August 7th, 2011, 07:17 AM
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The Defenders were never made to be fast , "Tomcat Aside", As the brand grew and government regulations the engines changed. No question the Td5 and the Puma motors are smoother than the 300 or the 2.8 They have more power and quieter. They are just more refined. However with that refinement came electronic management. It is a trade off. I would think if you are planning on using the truck off road stick with the 300. It it is a street truck then the Puma is great. But be aware that finding parts and diagnostic tools for the Puma motor are hard to find. If what I heard is true? LRNA is not going to sell parts for that motor.
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  #8  
Old August 7th, 2011, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC22958 View Post
LRNA is not going to sell parts for that motor.
If I'm not mistaken LRNA won't sell parts for anything that wasn't imported by them, so not selling parts for the Puma wouldn't be anything different.
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  #9  
Old August 7th, 2011, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junkyddog11 View Post
I'm warming up to modern diesels for sure. Yes there are some electronics but they do keep the thing running efficiently, and being electonically fueled they can be easily and more importantly , correctly tuned..... Unlike the 300 which for better or worse seems to keep running in the most rotten state of tune.
Seems that many 300's I see in the shop now have been *tweaked* and are ridiculously over fueled. They are usually in for some sort of overheating issue and the head gasket is generally failed and the head and one or more pistons are cracked .
Electronics have come a long way in the last couple of decades.
That said I'm pretty sure my 300 will not be getting replaced and it will probably outlive me.
I agree. I have (in addition to the 300Tdi) a powerstroke in my utility truck. It's fly by wire and extremely dependable. To date my only major issue was a failed vacuum pump. However, unlike my Tdi, it's not a engine I can easily work on or diagnose. So there is a trade off. Also, there's just something about the Tdi that seems a lot more apropriate to a Land Rover.

I can't really say anything about the Puma 2.4 since I have no experience with it, but there are quite a few complaints that I have read. Is not the transmission a big issue with that motor?
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  #10  
Old August 7th, 2011, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC View Post
Issues of maintenance and availability aside, the Puma is a much more drivable vehicle than a 300 tdi truck. The Puma is quieter, smoother, will accelerate up hill in 6th gear and has no trouble hitting its 83mph speed limiter. I haven't driven a Puma 90, but the Puma keeps the 110 from being genuinely pokey, like a tdi 110 can be. A Puma 90 might be almost quick.
The short time I got to drive a D110 with this engine did not give me this experience. But it sounds like you are getting more seat time then I did.

Our friend you got the 4.6 from is interested in owning one of these engines in a D110 You should check in with him and give him your insight about it Jim C. Think he is looking at a truck right now in fact.
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  #11  
Old August 7th, 2011, 03:14 PM
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torque and brake horsepower are two different specs.... on a diesel where the redline is 2500 rpm max you are not looking for rpms to make speed but rather the torque to get you moving.
take a big rig,6cyl 400hp nearly 1500 lbs of torque at 14.6 liters, yet that sucker will move 40 tons up a 10% grade with out issues.
take a 400 hp v8 454 liter gasoline engine it may give you 200 lbs of torque, will dance around that big diesel but will struggle to pull a 10 ton load up the same grade...
on a diesel torque is your friend not hp....
gas engine max street able compression ratio 10 to 1
diesel minimum compression ratio jut to be able to start 18 to 1 normal 20 to 1..
just my general .02
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  #12  
Old August 7th, 2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel_jim View Post
Two totally different engines.

The Tdi is 99% purely mechanical... the only electrical bits are alternator,starter and fuel solenoid on the FIP (all of which can be removed/run without)

Puma is totally electronic, needs an ECU, high pressure in tank pump, drive by wire throttle pedal, and will need most of the dash guages etc to make it run (and so that YOU can see what it's doing)
I don't think it has a pump in the tank. I think both lift and high pressure pumps are on the engine. Agree with everything else. It has an ECM with multiple sensors, ie MAF, MAP, fuel pressure, etc, etc. About 9 sensors total that feed info to ECM and act accordingly. It is OBD II so you can pull codes and hopefully fix as needed. It is true that to "reprogram" the ECM would be difficult without support form LRNA. They do upgrade the ECM software from time to time. And I believe the injectors are "coded" to work with the ECM as well.

Otherwise it is a diesel lump, ie bolt on pump, injectors, glow plugs, valves, etc. Those bits would be the "same" to fix, ie diesel shop/mechanic. Might have to get parts shipped but that's not a big deal.

The ECM is the part that intimidates me and makes me think twice.

Also consider the transmission in comparison to the R380. It's not just about the engine but the "combo". I'm curious to hear from others that have more "seat time" in these trucks. When reading forums like Defender2 you will read a lot of complaints but no more or less than any of the other trucks.
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  #13  
Old August 7th, 2011, 05:00 PM
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Surprised to hear that since I have read a lot of very negative comments about the trans. Agree, best to hear from someone with real time experience.
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Old August 7th, 2011, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Antichrist View Post
If I'm not mistaken LRNA won't sell parts for anything that wasn't imported by them, so not selling parts for the Puma wouldn't be anything different.
I get some parts for my 300Tdi from Land Rover Richmond from time to time. I just got a block plug specific to the 300 Tdi from them the other day. The dealership didn't have it in stock but got it from the warehouse in a couple of days. The parts manager and service techs told me about the Puma. For some reason it is a red flag for them.
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Old August 8th, 2011, 03:11 AM
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One interesting thing about the Puma truck is the gearing. You row through the first 4 gears by the time you hit 40 mph, so you're shifting a lot. I have to drive the thing on the Autobahn and it holds its own quite well using that 6th gear.

I'm 15k kms into my experience with the Puma, and I'm totally satisfied. Anyone who wants to test it out can do so for the price of a round-trip ticket to Germany. Fly into Frankfurt, you can stay free at my place.
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  #16  
Old August 8th, 2011, 11:20 AM
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It might get interesting if Ford introduces the Duratorq, aka Puma engine, to the USA via the Transit Connect or Focus.
I know this will probably rub a lot the wrong way, but I'm very wary of anything Land Rover puts together which involves an ECU or any type of complex wiring. In fact, I'm not even convinced that they ever got basic lighting down.
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Old August 8th, 2011, 02:53 PM
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, but I'm very wary of anything Land Rover puts together which involves an ECU or any type of complex wiring. In fact, I'm not even convinced that they ever got basic lighting down.


Apart from the oil in the injector loom (Which a modified loom was made), the Td5 is a damn fine LR designed and built engine.
pretty bullet proof and very tunable.


Lucas lighting and wiring.... yup, you have a good point there though!
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  #18  
Old August 8th, 2011, 03:39 PM
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I don't have any rover diesels, but I will say my new jetta diesel is very quick and un-diesel like. 140hp and 236 ft/lbs (puma is 122hp, 265 ft/lbs, but only 221 ft/lbs in the transit)

Other than a very small number having HPFP failures, they seem to be good.
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  #19  
Old August 8th, 2011, 05:39 PM
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Over the weekend I saw a 2.4 puma motor coupled to an ashcroft automatic transmission upgrade kit. Wouldanyone know if this would reduce the torque on the motor significantly to the point where its not worth having it?
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Old August 8th, 2011, 05:53 PM
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Read this http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co...pring08LRO.pdf
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