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  #1  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 04:58 PM
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What would YOU do?

Please excuse me for moving this video into its own thread. I'm beyond frustrated and could really use an objective opinion - especially from those of you who have experience with rear diffs.

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

1) Buy new axles and hope the problem goes away?
2) Throw in the towel, cut your losses, and pay for someone local to rebuild another rear diff with a new TrueTrac?
3) Abandon TrueTrac completely and start over with ARB's (front and rear)?
4) Other?

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  #2  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 05:02 PM
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5) go back to the original supplier... GBR?
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  #3  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 06:13 PM
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I'd put a regular diff in and make another video showing that that's the only difference proving that it's the problem and get one that is not defective? from the supplier.
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  #4  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 06:15 PM
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That's insane. I've never heard a diff sound like that and still operate.

I'd go back to GBR and get shafts from him. Tell him that if that doesnt fix the problem (it won't) you want a full refund.

Call Lucky8 and get a setup ARB diff and call it done.

Another option is to swap in a stock open diff, remove front drive shaft and see what happens.
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  #5  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 06:31 PM
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Sorry to hear/read about the long standing problem! Nice video!

You might have done this already, but I'd try to call the manufacturer. Whatever problem you have in the drivetrain (diff or not), they must have seen/heard about on their side. They probably also have a list of troubleshooting steps they/you can take because I'm sure (like any other manufacturer), they don't want to do more "warranty" work/replacement than necessary. The design of the Land Rover axles is pretty common, you might actually get more feedback/help going outside the LR community.

I don't want to side track the issue too much, and you probably have answers to the following questions (might even be posted on a different thread or forum?)
- Not sure if you will have this opportunity, but I'm sure "people" would love to see the 3rd member all setup outside the axle housing. Possible operating it manually or powered with a drill (not sure how I'd rig that, but with a large socket and a few adaptors that should be possible) .
- Did you try to pull the rear axle shafts (one side or the other or both?) [Not sure if that's "safe" with such differential, but I'd assume it would be since you'd want to get home if you break down, right?] [Edit: you've done that, what was the result?]
- Did you see the inside of your axle housing to confirm there is/was no rubbing (large gear against housing) prior to that third install?
- [I might show my lack of knowledge on that one] can you swap your front and rear diffs and see if the noise moves with the diff? [yeah, the front is a little more involved when taking the diff out than the rear]

It does sound a little weird that you would have grinding issues with three different diffs. I would definitely think that the stats would not be in your favor at this time. But you might also be extremely unlucky?!

Ok, so... You have a truetrac diff, a rear drive shaft from GBR. Are you running stock axle shafts? Do you have other axle shafts to swap in the rear? Does it make any noise when you remove the rear drive shaft and drive around?
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  #6  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 06:40 PM
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Any chance your pumpkin has a dent, or has a leftover fitting from an ARB air line or other prior modification?
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  #7  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
That's insane. I've never heard a diff sound like that and still operate.

I'd go back to GBR and get shafts from him. Tell him that if that doesnt fix the problem (it won't) you want a full refund.

Call Lucky8 and get a setup ARB diff and call it done.

Another option is to swap in a stock open diff, remove front drive shaft and see what happens.
I agree. I bet the TT doesn't work like it should when it slips. How old are the Diffs? I'd tell Bill he owes you a resolution or your money back. I don't even want to know how much you paid for that broken ass diff

Yo could try pulling axle shafts and driving to prove it's the carrier and not the gears.
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  #8  
Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
- Not sure if you will have this opportunity, but I'm sure "people" would love to see the 3rd member all setup outside the axle housing. Possible operating it manually or powered with a drill (not sure how I'd rig that, but with a large socket and a few adaptors that should be possible) .
If the truck is on a lift and the rear drive shaft disconnected from the t-case would rotating it by hand produce the same effect?
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  #9  
Old June 24th, 2012, 10:19 AM
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As my mechanic says: "definitely there´s something wrong that´s not right".

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  #10  
Old June 24th, 2012, 11:12 AM
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Pull the rear drive shaft and see what noises it makes then pull the 3rd and see what noises it makes and then put in a stock 3rd with d-shaft and see what noises it makes.

It is very strange that you would get 3 bad setups Are they just rebuilding the one (3rd) you return or is it a whole new setup (housing)?
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  #11  
Old June 25th, 2012, 01:06 AM
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Thanks for all the input, guys. Let me try to answer each of your questions.

I should add that this diff does NOT act exactly like the previous two, I explain the specifics in the video. there is a common noise between all 3 that I am convinced (now) to be a design issue with the TT. And, if som the 1st diff was working as designed.

Also, this diff gets much noisier when it gets hot. Bad axles are still bad when the car is cold. It isn't the axles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel_jim View Post
5) go back to the original supplier... GBR?
Yes. GBR is the supplier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
I'd put a regular diff in and make another video showing that that's the only difference proving that it's the problem and get one that is not defective? from the supplier.
If I could find an open diff wil 4.11 gears, I would!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
That's insane. I've never heard a diff sound like that and still operate.

I'd go back to GBR and get shafts from him.
I tried. He's out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
Tell him that if that doesnt fix the problem (it won't) you want a full refund.
He's already told me that he has no obligation to me and that he's only helped me thus far as a technical challenge. I am sure he'd refuse a request for a refund.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
Another option is to swap in a stock open diff, remove front drive shaft and see what happens.
GBR and eaton are arguing that damaged axles won't cause the same "pre-load" problem they suspect in an open diff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
You might have done this already, but I'd try to call the manufacturer.
Bill at GBR Utah has been in contact with Eaton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
Whatever problem you have in the drivetrain (diff or not), they must have seen/heard about on their side. They probably also have a list of troubleshooting steps they/you can take because I'm sure (like any other manufacturer), they don't want to do more "warranty" work/replacement than necessary.
I did their test (jack up rear, spin tires opposite direction. The results suggest a bad gear (like a burr or high spot). GBR and/or Eaton didn't respond to that info at all. Details of what that test sounded like (with audio sample) in the video.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
The design of the Land Rover axles is pretty common, you might actually get more feedback/help going outside the LR community.
If I don't get any resolution soon, I'll revise the video and take it to a much bigger audience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
I don't want to side track the issue too much, and you probably have answers to the following questions (might even be posted on a different thread or forum?)
- Not sure if you will have this opportunity, but I'm sure "people" would love to see the 3rd member all setup outside the axle housing. Possible operating it manually or powered with a drill (not sure how I'd rig that, but with a large socket and a few adaptors that should be possible) .
Me too. But this is my daily driver> who will pay for the rental car and the mechanic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
- Did you try to pull the rear axle shafts (one side or the other or both?) [Not sure if that's "safe" with such differential, but I'd assume it would be since you'd want to get home if you break down, right?] [Edit: you've done that, what was the result?]
Interesting idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
- Did you see the inside of your axle housing to confirm there is/was no rubbing (large gear against housing) prior to that third install?
I did. It's clear of the edges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
- [I might show my lack of knowledge on that one] can you swap your front and rear diffs and see if the noise moves with the diff? [yeah, the front is a little more involved when taking the diff out than the rear]
I've considered it. That's a lot of work - then I have to reverse it when I'm done. All to prove what is clear in the video. The diff is screwed. Still... I might have to if I want the right parts or my money back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
It does sound a little weird that you would have grinding issues with three different diffs. I would definitely think that the stats would not be in your favor at this time. But you might also be extremely unlucky?!
If the issues on all 3 diffs were the same I'd agree with you.
Diff #1 - Locked the rear with center diff locked
Diff #2 - Same as #1 plus grinding noises in the gears (not in the diff). Resolved when replaced.
Diff #3 - Same as #1 with addition of all the sounds in the video.

I am beginning to think a locking TruTrac with center diff locked is just how it works. As such, the 1st diff was working as designed, but not as advertised (Not silent operation at all).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
Ok, so... You have a truetrac diff, a rear drive shaft from GBR. Are you running stock axle shafts?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
Do you have other axle shafts to swap in the rear?
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
Does it make any noise when you remove the rear drive shaft and drive around?
Yes. Verified in the rear end with Chassis Ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
Any chance your pumpkin has a dent, or has a leftover fitting from an ARB air line or other prior modification?
Pumpkin is perfect. No air lines ever installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
If the truck is on a lift and the rear drive shaft disconnected from the t-case would rotating it by hand produce the same effect?
We did this test without disconnecting the drive shaft. Noted (with audio) in the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushngo View Post
Pull the rear drive shaft and see what noises it makes
We did that. Same noises, just not as loud because there was no torque applied to the rear end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushngo View Post
then pull the 3rd and see what noises it makes
How do you replicate the force of tires on a diff that's out of the axle housing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushngo View Post
and then put in a stock 3rd with d-shaft and see what noises it makes.
I'd have to swap both diffs to do that. Unless I can find someone with a spare front diff set up with 4.11 gears. I wonder... could I just remove the front drive shaft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushngo View Post
It is very strange that you would get 3 bad setups.
If they all behaved the same, it would be even more suspect. But, they have all been different (see details above).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushngo View Post
Are they just rebuilding the one (3rd) you return or is it a whole new setup (housing)?
The 1st and 2nd diff were the same gears and bearings. the 3rd diff (with completely new issues) is supposedly a whole new unit but I can't help but wonder if Bill reassembled the 1st TruTrac (which he took apart) and put it in the 3rd diff with a screw missing or lose. He said he didn't.
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  #12  
Old June 25th, 2012, 01:27 AM
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Diff set up into the truck.

Since you went with 4.11 gears - who shimmed and set your backlash? I imaging you would have received a new ring and pinion but have the pinion bearings and races been replaced and the backlash set a little tighter than stock as you most likely received the diff in a box for someone to install. If the ring and pinion gears on meating fitting right you should be able to see a somewhat greyish line where it looks like the ring gear has gotten hot. I takes someone who really knows diffs to get the backlash set just right.
Also are the diff carrier bearings bolts torqued to spec?



Good luck and great video.

Side note I went with True trac up front and a locker in the rear - mainly because I couldn't afford an ARB set up. I also went with Ashcroft HD axles from Justin at Lucky8. True trac up front took a little time to set in so the torque steer is all gone. The detroit will makes it usually clicking in hard turns and everyonce in awhile will reset itself with a little "bong" noise but I really like the set up IMHO. I am running stock gears as well and had no problem climbing all over Moab 2 years ago.
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  #13  
Old June 25th, 2012, 06:42 AM
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You can't simply swap front and rear as the truetracs are assembled differently front and rear.
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  #14  
Old June 25th, 2012, 08:48 AM
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So you're telling me it didnt make this clunking noise before Bills diff guy took apart the truetrac!? I'd say it's pretty damn obvious they screwed something up. The carrier is what is making the those noises. Gears will not make noises like that unless they are missing teeth. If they are improperly set up they will whine but they wont make noises like that. If it is happening with or without drive shaft when turning it is the truetrac. If they disassembled it and put it back together and it started making this noise it's their fault. He should have took the truetrac out, replaced it with a new one and sent the old one back to Eaton.

I would fight as hard as you can to get your money back. I am willing to bet you have 3k+ into these diffs and a ton of time into trying to fix theses diffs. Simply put he sent you a product that is screwed up big time and he needs to own up to his product or you should pursue legal actions. (I would have by now). He is trying to tell you to buy new axles?! I would be irate.

Get your money back and take it to Justin at Lucky8.

Our of curiosity - Are the Bills GBR gears as well or are they Ashcrofts?
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  #15  
Old June 25th, 2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
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You can't simply swap front and rear as the truetracs are assembled differently front and rear.
I keep thinking about this, is it possible they put a front TT in the rear diff? Would spinning the opposite direction make that kind of noise?
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  #16  
Old June 25th, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
I am beginning to think a locking TruTrac with center diff locked is just how it works. As such, the 1st diff was working as designed, but not as advertised (Not silent operation at all).
I think you right. That first one could have been fine just noisy. But then again you can probably make some noises center locked, lo-range on pavement even with a stock setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pushngo View Post
Pull the rear drive shaft and see what noises it makes then pull the 3rd and see what noises it makes and then put in a stock 3rd with d-shaft and see what noises it makes.

It is very strange that you would get 3 bad setups Are they just rebuilding the one (3rd) you return or is it a whole new setup (housing)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
I keep thinking about this, is it possible they put a front TT in the rear diff? Would spinning the opposite direction make that kind of noise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake1996d1 View Post
Get your money back and take it to Justin at Lucky8.

Our of curiosity - Are the Bills GBR gears as well or are they Ashcrofts?
I would try to baseline your setup. Like Randy said, pull the third and see if there is any noise that could be bearing/hub/brake related. Then get a good stock 3rd and pop in after removing the front drive shaft. And see if there is any noise.

If there isn't any noise I would send that TruTrac 3rd member up to Justin/Lucky8 or another 3rd party to diagnose. Like Wolf said, is there a front carrier in there? Is everything spec'd and backlashed correctly? Bearings checked out? And like Jake and others have said, what do those gears look like and are they Aschcrofts? Are they rear specific gears?

I'm sure you are sick of spending money but Option 4 of an all Ashcroft rear end could be good - Aschroft gears, Ashcroft LSD, and Ashcroft axles (with a 5 year warranty).

And Option 5 which could be the same amount as Option 4 is do the RovingTracks Toy setup. Electronic locker and axles that are stronger than HD Rover stuff and the nice thing is if the wiring has a mishap it can still be locked/unlocked with a screwdriver and a 10mm wrench (but a dirty back :D )

One more thing - might want to search on TruTracs here, on Pirate 4x4, Expidtion Portal and Discoweb. I could have sworn I read a few times that TruTracs are tough on stock axles they way they spin then lock. Who knows maybe it really could be the axles? But - I have no experience with them so can't say for sure.
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  #17  
Old June 25th, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
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I could have sworn I read a few times that TruTracs are tough on stock axles they way they spin then lock.
Thought TruTracs are LSDs and do not "lock"?
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  #18  
Old June 25th, 2012, 12:23 PM
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Thought TruTracs are LSDs and do not "lock"?
That's true. How about when the "free" wheel spins then torque is given to the wheel with traction? I thought I read on one of those sites (or all of them) that when the torque is transferred it can shock stock axles pretty well. But again, I don't have TruTrac experience and do not have a link to the threads nor am I a TruTrac expert.

One more thing, as I was looking at a TruTrac vid - is there a gear oil/lubrication issue? Is anything special like a synthetic needed for a TruTrac? Was the gear oil changed after 500-1000 miles when first installed? Hans not sure if you mentioned that or not.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don View Post
That's true. How about when the "free" wheel spins then torque is given to the wheel with traction? I thought I read on one of those sites (or all of them) that when the torque is transferred it can shock stock axles pretty well. But again, I don't have TruTrac experience and do not have a link to the threads nor am I a TruTrac expert.

One more thing, as I was looking at a TruTrac vid - is there a gear oil/lubrication issue? Is anything special like a synthetic needed for a TruTrac? Was the gear oil changed after 500-1000 miles when first installed? Hans not sure if you mentioned that or not.

TT's work on regular gear oil. Proper diff break it wouldnt cause that noise unless there was something visually wrong with the gears or the carrier is broken. good guesses though
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  #20  
Old June 25th, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Had the same exact noise. Swapped a diff and still there. Mine turned out to be the rear u-joint even though it looked good with no play.

Great video.
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