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  #2261  
Old June 2nd, 2015, 11:46 PM
cbfritz_03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Sounds good, Don. I'll make a separate thread with the details.

The original tub floor is pretty soft stuff and warps/dents quite easily.
Are you going to be putting indentations in the new aluminum floor? It was suggested to me by a friend that by doing so would increase floor strength...I'm just not sure about having those rather than a flat floor.
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  #2262  
Old June 2nd, 2015, 11:46 PM
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Dave
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I was debating changing out my tub floor when I redid my truck. It would be a pretty straight forward project. Get a bunch of Cleco fasteners that are the right size for the holes as to keep things lined up while drilling and fastening. That's how they piece together aircraft skin.

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  #2263  
Old June 3rd, 2015, 12:31 AM
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Ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbfritz_03 View Post
Are you going to be putting indentations in the new aluminum floor? It was suggested to me by a friend that by doing so would increase floor strength...I'm just not sure about having those rather than a flat floor.
Good question. I believe the technical term for what you are describing is "beading" of a panel. This is usually done to increase the stiffness of the panel, although it does not affect the ultimate tensile strength of the material. This means that a beaded panel will be stiffer than an unbeaded panel (resistant to deformation), but will fail at the same tensile limit.

The elastic modulus of 6061-T6 Aluminum is ~70GPa, while mild steel is ~210GPa. Assuming that the stiffness of a sheet of material varies roughly by the third power of the thickness of the material, a sheet of 6061-T6 aluminum is roughly equivalent to a 1.4422x thinner piece of mild steel. Therefore, the floor that I will be putting in is equivalent to the stiffness of 0.086" mild steel, or approximately 13 gauge steel sheet.

Beading the aluminum unfortunately involves bending. The bend radius of heat treated T6 aluminum is 4T, meaning that the bend radius of my sheet is half an inch. This would make the beads necessarily deep, which I think would be difficult to use considering the design of the floor of the tub on a defender (think rib stiffeners, etc.) Also the dies / presses necessary to do the beading are something that I do not have, especially since rolled beads (the most simple way to produce the beads) would be very difficult at this thickness.

The question remaining then is whether or not the inherent stiffness of the aluminum sheet is enough for the tub. My opinion is yes. Based on the book "Materials for Automobile Bodies" by Geoffrey Davies, the body panel sections of the Defender are made of 3000-series aluminum alloy. The specific alloy is not mentioned. Based on this reference , my opinion is that it seems unlikely that the alloy is heat treated after forming. This would place the UTS of the material at roughly 130-150 MPa (somewhere between 3003 and 3105). Possibly in an H14 state at 160Mpa - either way, it is low. Brinnell hardness is 40 making the new floor more than twice as hard.

Overall I think the effect will be positive on the tub.
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  #2264  
Old June 3rd, 2015, 09:21 AM
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Don Bunnell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Sounds good, Don. I'll make a separate thread with the details.

The original tub floor is pretty soft stuff and warps/dents quite easily.
Thanks - will look for it. And great post on the thickness - the local metal yard has a bunch of different thickness in 4x8 sheets (I would need 3x7 for my 110) - I was going to go 0.060 but thinking at 0.100 after reading your post. Will have to see what they cost tho!

Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
I was debating changing out my tub floor when I redid my truck. It would be a pretty straight forward project. Get a bunch of Cleco fasteners that are the right size for the holes as to keep things lined up while drilling and fastening. That's how they piece together aircraft skin.

Thanks - I was wondering how I would reattach the flooring. Looks like these are easy to get not that much either.
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  #2265  
Old June 3rd, 2015, 10:35 PM
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Charles Galpin
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Typical Ed style post had me glazed over half way through it. Don't forget you have several steel stiffeners under the bed. Once you rivet it all together it's quite rigid.

I have clecos if you need to borrow them.

Is your truck back on the road yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Good question. I believe the technical term for what you are describing is "beading" of a panel. This is usually done to increase the stiffness of the panel, although it does not affect the ultimate tensile strength of the material. This means that a beaded panel will be stiffer than an unbeaded panel (resistant to deformation), but will fail at the same tensile limit.

The elastic modulus of 6061-T6 Aluminum is ~70GPa, while mild steel is ~210GPa. Assuming that the stiffness of a sheet of material varies roughly by the third power of the thickness of the material, a sheet of 6061-T6 aluminum is roughly equivalent to a 1.4422x thinner piece of mild steel. Therefore, the floor that I will be putting in is equivalent to the stiffness of 0.086" mild steel, or approximately 13 gauge steel sheet.

Beading the aluminum unfortunately involves bending. The bend radius of heat treated T6 aluminum is 4T, meaning that the bend radius of my sheet is half an inch. This would make the beads necessarily deep, which I think would be difficult to use considering the design of the floor of the tub on a defender (think rib stiffeners, etc.) Also the dies / presses necessary to do the beading are something that I do not have, especially since rolled beads (the most simple way to produce the beads) would be very difficult at this thickness.

The question remaining then is whether or not the inherent stiffness of the aluminum sheet is enough for the tub. My opinion is yes. Based on the book "Materials for Automobile Bodies" by Geoffrey Davies, the body panel sections of the Defender are made of 3000-series aluminum alloy. The specific alloy is not mentioned. Based on this reference , my opinion is that it seems unlikely that the alloy is heat treated after forming. This would place the UTS of the material at roughly 130-150 MPa (somewhere between 3003 and 3105). Possibly in an H14 state at 160Mpa - either way, it is low. Brinnell hardness is 40 making the new floor more than twice as hard.

Overall I think the effect will be positive on the tub.
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  #2266  
Old June 4th, 2015, 01:52 AM
cbfritz_03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Good question. I believe the technical term for what you are describing is "beading" of a panel. This is usually done to increase the stiffness of the panel, although it does not affect the ultimate tensile strength of the material. This means that a beaded panel will be stiffer than an unbeaded panel (resistant to deformation), but will fail at the same tensile limit.

The elastic modulus of 6061-T6 Aluminum is ~70GPa, while mild steel is ~210GPa. Assuming that the stiffness of a sheet of material varies roughly by the third power of the thickness of the material, a sheet of 6061-T6 aluminum is roughly equivalent to a 1.4422x thinner piece of mild steel. Therefore, the floor that I will be putting in is equivalent to the stiffness of 0.086" mild steel, or approximately 13 gauge steel sheet.

Beading the aluminum unfortunately involves bending. The bend radius of heat treated T6 aluminum is 4T, meaning that the bend radius of my sheet is half an inch.This would make the beads necessarily deep, which I think would be difficult to use considering the design of the floor of the tub on a defender (think rib stiffeners, etc.) Also the dies / presses necessary to do the beading are something that I do not have, especially since rolled beads (the most simple way to produce the beads) would be very difficult at this thickness.

The question remaining then is whether or not the inherent stiffness of the aluminum sheet is enough for the tub. My opinion is yes. Based on the book "Materials for Automobile Bodies" by Geoffrey Davies, the body panel sections of the Defender are made of 3000-series aluminum alloy. The specific alloy is not mentioned. Based on this reference , my opinion is that it seems unlikely that the alloy is heat treated after forming. This would place the UTS of the material at roughly 130-150 MPa (somewhere between 3003 and 3105). Possibly in an H14 state at 160Mpa - either way, it is low.Brinnell hardness is 40 making the new floor more than twice as hard.

Overall I think the effect will be positive on the tub.
Ed, I just had a 'talk nerdy to me' moment. Thank you. I wasn't too concerned about using my obviously incorrect term - I had a feeling you would let me know. My friend has the equipment to do the beading but I wasn't sure if that step could be justified or was even wanted. You have covered and answered all of my thoughts and questions. And included a book reference... so great. Thank you very much.
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  #2267  
Old June 4th, 2015, 08:13 PM
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sorry for the nerdage! hope the information is useful for somebody other than me!
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  #2268  
Old June 4th, 2015, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
sorry for the nerdage!
You ROCKED the pocket protector!

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  #2269  
Old June 4th, 2015, 08:46 PM
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A good starter motor makes a helluva difference. Now to get the old MG unit reconditioned and into my parts bin
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  #2270  
Old June 4th, 2015, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
sorry for the nerdage! hope the information is useful for somebody other than me!
never apologize for nerdage. I was complimenting you .
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  #2271  
Old June 6th, 2015, 03:30 PM
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I finally bolted my seats back in.

I also replaced my dipstick and dipstick tube. I was able to get at least another quart of oil in.
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  #2272  
Old June 6th, 2015, 04:35 PM
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Ok, so it's been weeeeeeks since I've driven the 90. It took about 30 seconds to get used to the 80lbs of force required to use the clutch pedal. I got back in the Jetta afterwards and I was afraid I wan't going to be able to drive it. It's funny how one direction was easy to deal with and the other directions almost caused me to roll out of my driveway into traffic.
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  #2273  
Old June 7th, 2015, 09:15 AM
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Robert Wavers
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Sunny day here in Germany, finally gave in to moving the car seat from Mom's car into the Defender. All smiles, then snores. I'm not sure how she slept through going 100kph, but she did.
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  #2274  
Old June 9th, 2015, 10:11 PM
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  #2275  
Old June 10th, 2015, 11:03 PM
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Bought a set of flare fitting wrenches for the first time...they make a huge difference in dealing with hydraulic fittings! They helped me get rid of some power steering fluid leaks I had on the ps box. Never knew they made such a huge difference.
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  #2276  
Old June 11th, 2015, 10:11 AM
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Starter works great. The other day Ella (FKA Nigel) started to.
Today nothing no signs of life, turns over great.
It's not like we've done nothing. coil has been changed, dizzy changed,amplifier changed, spark plug wires etc new rotor dizzy cap all changed. Ground/earths checked and verified. Ecu connections good. No faults reported by the ECU.
Decided to remove the fuel rail and test the injectors.
Running out of ideas. Fuel pressure is good but if one or more injectors is not right....
Reminder this started after driving to WR in Feb.
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  #2277  
Old June 11th, 2015, 10:35 AM
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Top and cage completed!!!!
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  #2278  
Old June 11th, 2015, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ATX_D110 View Post
Top and cage completed!!!!
Sweet! Looks great!
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  #2279  
Old June 11th, 2015, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Starter works great. The other day Ella (FKA Nigel) started to.
Today nothing no signs of life, turns over great.
It's not like we've done nothing. coil has been changed, dizzy changed,amplifier changed, spark plug wires etc new rotor dizzy cap all changed. Ground/earths checked and verified. Ecu connections good. No faults reported by the ECU.
Decided to remove the fuel rail and test the injectors.
Running out of ideas. Fuel pressure is good but if one or more injectors is not right....
Reminder this started after driving to WR in Feb.
What year are we talking about (check crank sensor?)
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  #2280  
Old June 11th, 2015, 11:09 AM
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Chris
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Originally Posted by rankar View Post
What year are we talking about (check crank sensor?)
Engine from 95 Disco. Thottle position sensor?
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