Transmission Removal Question - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old August 24th, 2013, 08:31 AM
edh
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Ed
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Transmission Removal Question

Long story short, lost my clutch the other day in the ex-mod 90, thought the pushrod may have become dislodged because the last time I replaced the slave cylinder I omitted the "Death Clip". The clutch fork is moving forward and backwards with very little to no effort. Also when I did the slave I could move the clutch fork with some force and feel the clutch move, now the clutch fork seems to be just hitting the back of the bell housing. So I am about to remove the trans/tc in my driveway, and I have a couple of questions.

1. I did not notice any forward movement of the fork last time, this is not normal yes?

2. Is it worth it to remove the t/case first, to make the load easier for my crappy trans jack attachment? I have swapped a few t/cases before but never a transmission.

C. Has anyone made the transmission removal jig in the workshop manual? I would be willing to trade use of for beer.

4. Reverse is starting to jump out of gear, is it just a matter of time before the lt77 takes a big dump? Is there an easy fix? Anyone ever rebuild one?

E. What should I be looking for as far as clutch/bearing etc. inspections?

Thanks,
Ed
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  #2  
Old August 24th, 2013, 08:55 AM
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Robert Davis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edh View Post
Long story short, lost my clutch and I have a couple of questions.

1. I did not notice any forward movement of the fork last time, this is not normal yes?

2. Is it worth it to remove the t/case first, to make the load easier for my crappy trans jack attachment? I have swapped a few t/cases before but never a transmission.

C. Has anyone made the transmission removal jig in the workshop manual? I would be willing to trade use of for beer.

4. Reverse is starting to jump out of gear, is it just a matter of time before the lt77 takes a big dump? Is there an easy fix? Anyone ever rebuild one?

E. What should I be looking for as far as clutch/bearing etc. inspections?

Thanks,
Ed
1. correct
2. Yes especially if you are working alone. Take the cover off and extract the final drive gear. It will slide off the main shaft. Going out is easier than going in. You'll need to play arpond with the gear selection and get some in gear spin when you put it back in that will let you line it back up. I alsway put some grease on the bearings. This will protect the seal and make it much easier going in and out.
C. Not sure, but we use a lift which makes it an easier job. Suggest you look for a lift unless you are still young and very strong and think you can do it by yourself in the driveway without getting hurt.
4. Have rebuilt several, usually to replace a worn main shaft and syncros, but if you've never done one, you might want to buy one of the "stumpy" R380s from Ashcroft complete with both shift assemblies. Depending on your LT77 suffix the T-case shifter can be very different different. The R380 is a nice upgrade. We use to rebuild the LT77, but now just swap them for the short belhousing R380 "Stumpy".
E. My guess is that you need a new clutch if yours is not working and after all your efforts, you may want to consider putting in a new one.

Spent all last weekend putting a new clutch in a 300TDI 110 with Long belhousing.
It's not a bad job, but takes a long time, so will share some tips with you to make it easier.

Clutches fail for any number of unknown reasons that are discovered only when the transmission is removed and the clutch unbolted. In the LT77, the most common issue I've encountered is the bolts that synch up the belhousing to the main gearbox housing come loose and get caught up in the clutch.
Another common failure is that one or more of the springs in the driven plate (disk) break out and get jammed in the pressure plate.

When we order a 3 piece clutch, also order a new pilot bush that should be greased before everything goes back together.

The studs in the back of the engine make this job much harder. I get 2 - 10mm 1.5 nuts and synch them onto each stud in opposite torque and then use them to remove the studs. GM does not use studs and so do many other manufactures. Get yourself some appropriate 10mm X 1.5 bolts to replace the studs. Also buy 2 assorted length bolts starting at 6" long, then 2 at 5", and 4" and so on until you are down to the replacement bolts that replace the studs.

Buy the proper alignment tool.

There are ways to check a pressure plate by putting a release bearing on too, then a piece of wood, then by using a press to check the release and engage pressure, but clutch assemblies are cheap enough to be safe just buy a new one.

We also remove all the old belhousing bolts one by one, clean the bolt and threads it screws into with q-tips and thinner. Then install the bolts with locktight blue.

Reassembly:
After the clutch is in place and properly aligned, move the main box up close and get the 2 - 6" bolts into the back of the engine on opposite sides. Doesn't matter exactly where, like 9 and 3 O'clock for example. Evenly push the gearbox in. then get the 2 - 5" bolts started and so on until you evenly support the main transmission. then the first motion shaft will need to line up with the clutch splines. This is by feel, but can be done with the main box in gear and turning the tail shaft or with a socket and breaker bar on the crank nut. Anyway, this is by feel, but very important to get right. Then you can slowly and evenly synch the main box in place.

The rest is just typical reassembly.

I usually replace the clutch slave, master, and hose unless there is a very good reason not to.

Hope this helps you Ed.
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  #3  
Old August 25th, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Tom Rowe
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I've made the jig for the R-380, it's worth it's weight (which is a lot) in gold.
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  #4  
Old August 25th, 2013, 05:21 PM
edh
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Thanks for the tips. I really would like to make a jig for the lt230. I finally got the transmission out today, I'm not a mechanic but something does not look right to me



So I am pretty sure that I'm going to live w/ the lt77 for now. The fork seems ok anything else I should check for?
Thanks,
Ed
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  #5  
Old August 25th, 2013, 07:01 PM
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Concerning the transmission jig in the manual, I just made something out of couple pieces of 16 gauge steel. Maybe this is obvious to others, but it took me a couple of times fighting the transfer case to figure it out:

1) Remove the four central bolts in the bottom cover of the transfer case.
2) Take two pieces of of 16 gauge steel and drill holes in the steel that line up with the four central bolts in the bottom cover of the transfer case.
3) Keeping the plate bolt holes aligned, drill four holes that line up with bolt holes on your transmission jack.
4) Bolt the steel plates to the bottom cover of the transfer case.
5) Bolt the steel plates to your transmission jack.

You can also do this with the transmission. There are several unused bolt holes on the bottom of the transmission (I think - hopefully I'm not just thinking R380).

This works a lot better than trying to chain the transfer case or transmission to the transmission jack. The transfer case won't slip around and making fine adjustments to your transmission jack angles actually works rather than causing things to slide around. It made my live a lot easier.
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  #6  
Old August 25th, 2013, 09:55 PM
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Just did this a week ago, though it was an R380 and I did use a lift. Banged it out in 2 (long) days, and my culprit was the throwout bearing was in its final stages. If you need any other input feel free to drop me a line.
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  #7  
Old August 25th, 2013, 10:35 PM
edh
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sorry for the pics not showing I'll try again.

------ Follow up post added August 25th, 2013 10:37 PM ------

part duh
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  #8  
Old August 25th, 2013, 10:44 PM
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OK I may be in left field here but..
I have found it quicker and easier to pull the engine then the trans-tcase in a diesel defender...
If I do not need to pull the trans, I can have my tdi out in 3hrs max with only hand tools.
I did not enjoy pulling the trans when I had to and would recommend giving pulling the engine a shot.
The clearance of the bell housing bolts on a lt77 NA diesel to bulk head is tighter but gear wrenches are your friends here.
Just my .02
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  #9  
Old August 25th, 2013, 10:49 PM
edh
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Jeff Briggs is the man, even if he wont send me any Pliny.

No Jeff I don't want anymore half shirt pics, sorry.

Seriously anyone ever make the lt230 jig? If you are swapping out a t/case on your back it would be invaluable, I would imagine.

Looking for a good source for the locating tool, or a reasonable facsimile.

Thanks,
Ed
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  #10  
Old August 25th, 2013, 11:04 PM
edh
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It may have been easier to pull the sorry lump of 2.5 na oil burner that LR was brazen enough to call an engine, but hindsight is 20/20.
Plus I already owe more favors for advice, shop time, crying towels to the mechanics at my job. Asking to borrow an engine hoist might put me on the "turn, act like you didn't see him, and walk away quickly" list, and I can ill afford that.
Ed
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  #11  
Old August 25th, 2013, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edh View Post
It may have been easier to pull the sorry lump of 2.5 na oil burner that LR was brazen enough to call an engine, but hindsight is 20/20.
Plus I already owe more favors for advice, shop time, crying towels to the mechanics at my job. Asking to borrow an engine hoist might put me on the "turn, act like you didn't see him, and walk away quickly" list, and I can ill afford that.
Ed
does this tcase jig require any welding? swapping my t ase fir a 1.2 next weekend, so good timing on trying this if its a cut and drill solution
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  #12  
Old August 26th, 2013, 01:40 PM
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Iirc it does require some welding. The best tip I ever heard for the tcase was to remove the rear cover plate for re- assembly. Then you are able to see where the splines line up.Ed
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Old August 26th, 2013, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exmod110 View Post
OK I may be in left field here but..
I have found it quicker and easier to pull the engine then the trans-tcase in a diesel defender...
If I do not need to pull the trans, I can have my tdi out in 3hrs max with only hand tools.
I did not enjoy pulling the trans when I had to and would recommend giving pulling the engine a shot.
The clearance of the bell housing bolts on a lt77 NA diesel to bulk head is tighter but gear wrenches are your friends here.
Just my .02
Only true if you don't have AC or you have the facility to drain and re-fill the refrigerant.
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  #14  
Old June 23rd, 2014, 12:43 PM
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I have to do my clutch fork on my R380, I'd like to do it alone, I'm seriously thinking about pulling out the engine instead of dropping the trans.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 01:04 PM
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You can move the trans back to do the clutch. Hang it off a 4x4 through the windows using a come along to lift it up and down. 4x4 can sit on an A-frame resting on the ground or if you are slick you can hand it off the interior roof gutters. Easier when the headliner is out. Trolley jack underneath will help too.

Definitely no need to pull the trans or engine all the way out to do a clutch job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFD View Post
I have to do my clutch fork on my R380, I'd like to do it alone, I'm seriously thinking about pulling out the engine instead of dropping the trans.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 01:22 PM
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I prefer pulling the engine if you do not have a lift. It is easier than crawling around on the ground and you get better access for changing the rear main seal and refitting the flywheel. With a friend you can do it in 4 hours. you should always be replacing all of the throwout components on a TDI.
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 01:31 PM
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you should always be replacing all of the throwout components on a TDI.
What do you mean exactly?
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Old June 23rd, 2014, 01:51 PM
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Slave cylinder, flexible hose, push rod, clutch fork, slipper pads, throwout bearing, pilot bearing. They all have a limited and should be replaced when doing a clutch. And surface the flywheel (like any clutch job). Replacing the rear main seal makes sense and if a 200TDI, replace the clutch housing gasket.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Slave cylinder, flexible hose, push rod, clutch fork, slipper pads, throwout bearing, pilot bearing. They all have a limited and should be replaced when doing a clutch. And surface the flywheel (like any clutch job). Replacing the rear main seal makes sense and if a 200TDI, replace the clutch housing gasket.
Let me see if I can translate this into part numbers (Tdi & R380):

Slave cylinder FTC5202 (in my case done couple of years ago)
Flexible hose NTC9055
Push rod FTC5199
Clutch fork FTC2957 (there is a HD upgraded version of this)
Release pads FRC5252
Release bearing FTC5200
Pilot bearing ?

List might be helpful for other board members, but everyone should check his particular case.

Cheers
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Old June 24th, 2014, 10:58 AM
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Funny that this came back up now as I am just swapping to a short R380 at the moment. I will not do another transfer case swap without making the jig period, or access to a lift. The cheapo transmission jack just doesn't cut it. Also I removed the seatbox and was able to pull the lt77 out and put the r380 in by hand with some assistance.
Ed
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