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  #21  
Old August 2nd, 2006, 08:42 PM
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220 is definitely above normal operating temperature. After swapping to an Autometer sender and gauge where I have actual numbers on it, the engine stays at a pretty solid 190 in the summer...which matches the 190 thermostat. In the winter, it actually operates somewhat lower at times and fluctuates between 165 or so and 185.

This past week, with temp and humidity close to 100, I have seen about a 5 degree increase in operating temperature, but never past 195 degrees.

-Hans
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  #22  
Old August 2nd, 2006, 10:43 PM
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If LR designated the "middle" range as normal then surely they consider 220 normal. I don't like to see it that high but others have and without problems.

What's your setup? Electric fans? Radiator age?
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  #23  
Old August 2nd, 2006, 11:49 PM
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I think mine is still the original radiator, and I currently run the flex-a-lite twin fans. When I had the original guage, normal operating was right in the middle.

-Hans
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  #24  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 10:31 AM
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I've never seen a working factory gauge say 210 is anywhere near "normal". We test all the new engines with an hand held infra-red unit and double check the gauge is working. If you get near 220 you are into the red on a factory working 1997 temp guage (or 195 for that matter).
The V8s should run in to 190-to just under 200 range otherwise you need to start fixing stuff.

My own 95 D90 has a weak clutch fan right now. In traffic it will creep up. As it starts to creep I'm hitting 200. Then when I am getting concerned it is 210. So it does read the engine correctly... it is telling me exactly what the engine is doing.
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  #25  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 11:02 AM
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Mike do you have a 97' gauge to open up and check?

Yes black sender for the defender and green for the discovery. 1/8" pipe style senders. 4.0 V8 and 300 tdi

190 to 200's is normal in my mind as well.

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  #26  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 11:07 AM
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I connected an OBD2 laptop analyzer to my 97:

1. software shows temps of 210-225 (off coolant sensor)
2. gauge shows middle to slightly past (off gauge sender)
3. infra-red at thremo housing agrees with coolant sensor

Again, others have reported temps of 220 in the normal range. Again, I don't like that.

Now, I will say that lately I've been losing coolant - about 4 cups per run. Could be from a visible leak in the front housing (doubt it, have had that for a long while with minimal coolant loss over time), could be from HD (no gasses in coolant though). Also got the gauge 1/2 past middle when this problem was first noticed.

I never installed a real gauge in this truck so perhaps I've suffered some damage.

Assuming a HD job is done, plan then is to fit electrics as well as two AC fans. Also, will rewire so that AC fans turn on at a chosen coolant temp or immediately when AC switch is on.
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  #27  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 11:28 AM
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I'll check, doubt it though. I have tons of 110 stuff, some 94-95 stuff and just a little 97 stuff as the 97 can retain the same gauges when we convert them to Tdi so I don't have take outs around.

Why were you getting false hot readings on a Tdi with the right gauge and sender? I've run mine to the floor for hours across the mid-west is stinking hot weather and it never comes off a couple degrees to the right of vertical (about 180 degrees).

The only time I have ever experienced a Tdi getting hot was when the muffler was wrong and too much back pressure was causing the EGTs to rise and then heat up the engine. Once the pipes went free flow haven't seen a cooling issue since.

What did you find??

Follow-up Post:

OK I found a '97 temp gauge and I'll gut it after lunch.

One question though...
What is the big deal about switch to a VDO gauge when the factory gauges are made by VDO anyway?
I agree #s are nice, but...

The 97 D90 gauge is a VDO part # 02 320 903
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  #28  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:17 PM
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The big deal for me is visibility. The numbers are nice, being able to see them at night is even nicer.

-Hans
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  #29  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Why were you getting false hot readings on a Tdi ...

One question though...
What is the big deal about switch to a VDO gauge when the factory gauges are made by VDO anyway?
I agree #s are nice, but..

Mike, Are you ttalking to me? I've got a V8.

I agree with the need for VDO swap. If you want numbers just get some decals and slap them on. For me, the simple look of the stock gauges can't be beat.

As for night visibility, I've said it before - mine are super bright in the high setting, I always keep them on low and they're fine.
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  #30  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
Mike, Are you ttalking to me? I've got a V8.

I agree with the need for VDO swap. If you want numbers just get some decals and slap them on. For me, the simple look of the stock gauges can't be beat.

As for night visibility, I've said it before - mine are super bright in the high setting, I always keep them on low and they're fine.
No, it was just a general question. I fully agree #s are great, but I just didn't want folks swapping out to a VDO gauge thinking they were getting "something better" when they would be removing a VDO gauge to install a VDO gauge.

Follow-up Post:

I gutted the 97 gauge and a standard VDO water temp gauge # 310 220 003

There is one extra diode in the Rover gauge, but without having an electronics degree I can't really say what it does or why.
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  #31  
Old August 3rd, 2006, 01:20 PM
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As the 97 gauge appears to exhibit conditioning, why not connect it to a standard VDO sender (suitable for this standard VDO gauge) and see how it reacts? If it works, there's no reason - for me at least - to swap gauges.
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  #32  
Old August 4th, 2006, 06:40 AM
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OK I found a '97 temp gauge and I'll gut it after lunch.


I'm glad you quit f*@^^#*(?) around on the internet long enough to eat lunch........hehehe
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  #33  
Old August 4th, 2006, 08:33 AM
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with over 300 emails a day to answer it seems all I do these days is f around on the net
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  #34  
Old August 4th, 2006, 11:52 AM
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Mike not trying to pick a fight here. But if I remember correctly the young man Noah who brought your truck was having high tempurature problems while driving through my part of the country. I tried to convince him to install a gauge with numbers which I believe he did at some point in New Mexico.

And if I remember correctly his response to the high tempurature was to drive at a slower speed. It is the highway that will bring the tempuratures up on a defender 300 tdi/2.8 TGV to dangerous levels. I build special radiators and remote mount the oil cooler in response to these issues. Since most people are not satisfied to slow down to 60 mph while crossing 400-500 miles of Kansas plains. And some of my customers aspire to run at 80 mph or more. So the tempurature issue is something I have spent a lot of time with.

I agree a free flow exhaust is important. All my installations feature this with some running straight tube. And others 3" up to a resonator instead of muffler. EGT gauge and tracking under full load with tuning to match safe engine operation is a must. Often a larger intercooler is needed. We have even experimented with water injection on a heavy D110.

As I said when working with a 97' D90 with a tempurature issue I hooked a standard VDO gauge in parallel with a factory gauge. 2 gauges with their own sending units. The factory gauge hung on to the normal reading while the standard gauge showed in excess of 210. That was the end of the factory gauges in my mind to track tempuratures.

Some of the purest types might like to retain the factory gauges for vainitys sake. So it might be nice to verify my theory and find a 'fix' for the issue that I believe is present. Beyond that I do not really care for LR gauges with their large sweep for normal.

JP


Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
I'll check, doubt it though. I have tons of 110 stuff, some 94-95 stuff and just a little 97 stuff as the 97 can retain the same gauges when we convert them to Tdi so I don't have take outs around.

Why were you getting false hot readings on a Tdi with the right gauge and sender? I've run mine to the floor for hours across the mid-west is stinking hot weather and it never comes off a couple degrees to the right of vertical (about 180 degrees).

The only time I have ever experienced a Tdi getting hot was when the muffler was wrong and too much back pressure was causing the EGTs to rise and then heat up the engine. Once the pipes went free flow haven't seen a cooling issue since.

What did you find??

Follow-up Post:

OK I found a '97 temp gauge and I'll gut it after lunch.

One question though...
What is the big deal about switch to a VDO gauge when the factory gauges are made by VDO anyway?
I agree #s are nice, but...

The 97 D90 gauge is a VDO part # 02 320 903
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  #35  
Old August 4th, 2006, 12:17 PM
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Noah has had temp problems. In my opinion these were caused by the changes he made to the fueling and boost of the engine after I sold him the rig. I spent months tweaking everything within an inch of its life on that 90 to what I considered the "safe limit". I drove it everywhere with no temp problems of any kind and even having speeding tickets of 93 mph (yes, it was downhill a little) so I was not easy on the truck. Hot cold, loaded, unloaded, east, west, whatever/

When Noah got it he changed all the settings to max out everything and it would be very easy then for him to get high EGTs and then coolant temps too high under load.

No fight here... I had it my way... never an issue. He changed it all... he has temp issues.

Bigger better rads are great and its cool you do that work. I hear it is needed with the 2.8s.

I likely agree on the 97 gauge. I'd like to know more about what that extra diode is, especially if folks are seeing 220 as "normal". I've never run across that yet. 220 on my manual tests will put a 97 D90 well into the "yikes" zone on the gauge on the ones I've worked on.

As for the 2 gauges... that is good info. but what was the actual temp (with a manual set up (infra-red or other)) to be able to relate the true engine temps to the guage(s).
What was the "control" in your test?
Was 190 on the numbered VDO dead nuts 190 on the engine??

I'm not a fan of any gauge. I never trust them until I see how they compare to an actual reading from a manual source.
I know on my old Tdi that it could "creep" before I changed the exhaust, but that "creep" was from straight up at about 170 degrees to headed towards the red at 185 degrees, both totally acceptable to me. I knew what the factory gauge meant, so I didn't need the numbers to tell me.

New gauges are great. I have nothing against them (no fight here).
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  #36  
Old August 4th, 2006, 02:00 PM
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What are your diesel radiators like? are you getting better results moving the oil cooler? where are you moving it to?
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  #37  
Old August 4th, 2006, 02:17 PM
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Pendy, I know this is getting off topic now but...

Are you saying in a bone stock 300 Tdi set up, without touching the boost or fueling and having a correct free flow exhaust you are seeing over heat problems in Tdis at highway speeds??

Would like to pick your brain on that.
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  #38  
Old August 4th, 2006, 03:47 PM
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when I installed the Tdi, I ran the sender that came with the engine and stock gauge and it was reading hot. I used the infra red gun and it was about 182. I then switched to all VDO gauges and senders to match. The temp now stays in the 180's to 190's and I cruise at 75mph at times.. In the winter though it runs really cool 160's unless I get on the highway then it goes up but as soon as you slow down, back to 160..
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  #39  
Old August 4th, 2006, 03:58 PM
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Thats real close to what I've seen, and our rigs are everywhere from FL to CA, ME to MT and once we sorted the exhaust issue no temp complaints (had big issues prior to exhaust sorting though).
I'm hanging in there for Pendy's feedback to see what the deal is.

One more test I'm gonna do. I'm switching a 97 D90 to a 4.6 next week and I'm going to get the temp gauge readings once and for all. I'm gonna stick the 4.0 in the paint booth and run it up to about 120 degrees in there and then run the car in there and compare the stock gauge to the infra-red and to the ECU's temp sender. That should give the definative answer on what a stock 97 D90s gauge it doing and when.
Maybe I'll get lucky and blow the engine at the same time.

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  #40  
Old August 6th, 2006, 06:45 AM
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just to add to the torture of temp testing........I have 2 infared temp guages, both fairly new, both quality brands. They both read the same up to about 120 deg at about 180-190 they differ by 12 deg. WTFO. Guess I'm just pointing out the need to also keep a check on testing equip.
80% of the rigs at my shop right now have overheating problems. I love the smell of coolant in the morning (not)!
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