TDI Injection Pump Timing - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 08:49 AM
BRAB
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Brandon
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TDI Injection Pump Timing

Hey looking for advice
I have a defender 200tdi motor which had a badly leaking injection pump on it so i swapped it out with spare from my old discovery 200tdi motor which has been sitting for a year. Crank and cam sprockets line up perfectly when at TDC and the timing pin slides into the boss on the injection pump nice and smooth. The engine starts and idles but puts out a lot of grey/white smoke which is like raw unburnt diesel. Also there is a major lag to throttle response and there is no power when you engage the clutch it stalls out. When you put the motor at TDC and slacken the three lock plate bolts there is adjust ability anti-clockwise but not clockwise in relation to the injection pump pin. We tried retarding the timing and it made it idle worse. Any ideas?
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  #2  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 09:16 AM
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John B.
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Try some advance. Set it up so the flywheel notch is a bit short of the bottom position with then injection pump in the right place. If you do not have adjustment room you have the sprocket aligned wrong.
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  #3  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 09:20 AM
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Brandon
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So these are symptoms of retarted timing? And yes I can not advance the pump any more clockwise. Does that mean that the injection pump sprocket in the timing case is too far to the counterclockwise direction.
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  #4  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAB View Post
So these are symptoms of retarted timing? And yes I can not advance the pump any more clockwise. Does that mean that the injection pump sprocket in the timing case is too far to the counterclockwise direction.
sounds like it, maybe a tooth off on the timing belt. mine is as well, but my full clockwise advance is just about perfect on timing for mine.

the IP sprocket mounts to the hub with the 3 bolts as you know. the hub is mounted to the IP driveshaft by one big dognut, and it is aligned for timing with the IP mechanicals on the bench using a dial gauge. if the hub slips on the shaft a little, you end up with your situation, where the pin at supposed TDC is at an extreme end of the adjustment play instead of TDC center as it should be.

so you can A) pull the IP and have the IP hub calibrated for TDC at a Bosch shop, B) pull the timing case or C) go with John recommendation and compensate with the flywheel slightly off lock. At that point for C, you're using your senses to get the timing right.

BTW, when I say off a tooth, I mean off a tooth from mechanical alignment, not timing mark alignment.

I hope you have an EGT. In retarded timing, all that unburned diesel vapor raises your EGT's quite a bit. I ran retarded for a few years in ignorance without an EGT gague, and it cost me a head.
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  #5  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAB View Post
So these are symptoms of retarted timing? And yes I can not advance the pump any more clockwise. Does that mean that the injection pump sprocket in the timing case is too far to the counterclockwise direction.
If there is no adjustment with the pins in place, the sprocket must be off a tooth.

The symptoms may indicate retarded timing.
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  #6  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 10:49 AM
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Brandon
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I have an EGT Gauge but at this point the truck is so out of time it is not even drive-able.

So for so called method 3 you would forget about the timing pin, turn the motor slightly past TDC (to allow the slot in the injection pump sprocket to move clockwise to allow more advancement adjust-ability) and then advance the pump clockwise to advance the timing.
Because i am not using the pin I will be able to advance to pump to which was not "accessible" when the motor was at TDC due to the IP sprocket being one or two teeth off in the counter clockwise direction.

Is this the correct logic?
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  #7  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 10:54 AM
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Unless I'm missing something the IP sprocket dot is in completely the wrong location in your photo. It should be next to the arrow around one o'clock.
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  #8  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 11:05 AM
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Brandon
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John you may be right,
I did not account for this arrow in the photo (located at the 1 O'clock position on the rear timing case) What mark on the IP sprocket matches up to that mark?
I thought due to the eccentric bolt pattern of the IP lock plate there was only one way to put the pulley on.



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Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Unless I'm missing something the IP sprocket dot is in completely the wrong location in your photo. It should be next to the arrow around one o'clock.
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  #9  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 11:07 AM
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photo

timing marks
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  #10  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 11:30 AM
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I thought there was a dot on the IP sprocket, but maybe not. With the belt off and the pin in place, loosen the adjuster and et to the middle of the range, then in stall the belt. I've guessing you can move a cog to get in the center of the range.

If the timing is truly off with the pins in correctly, it mean the pump was setup wrong. The proper check is with a dial gauge on the pump, but on a 200TDI, the vacuum pump is in the way.
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  #11  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 11:43 AM
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Yeah we could not find a mark on the sprocket for the IP and the rear of the timing case does not have the arrow in the photo above.
I understand the adjustment window should straddle the timing slot on the IP, right now it is definitely oriented to the counter clockwise position.

I have a defender 200tdi IP as a spare i can try to swap that in first and then dive into the case and re orient the IP Sprocket to allow the correct adjust-ability.
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  #12  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 11:55 AM
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  #13  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 12:12 PM
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If you have the pump loose, then I would check the plunger lift first with a dial gauge.
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  #14  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 12:16 PM
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yeah the replacement just came off my motor and i locked the pump in place using the lock screw on the side of the pump.

It would be best to check the lift before installing but the issues is getting a dial gauge that will fit the application for installation later today. (I don't know any places locally to get one)
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  #15  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 12:27 PM
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Are you using the flywheel pin also? Or just winging it with the IP pin only? Make sure you are on the correct flywheel slot, there are two and I think you want the smaller of the two. It's all in the manual and all over youtube.
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Present:
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Past:
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  #16  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 12:43 PM
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Brandon
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Yep using the small pin, and went through the learning curve of the two slots in the flywheel,
Brandon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
Are you using the flywheel pin also? Or just winging it with the IP pin only? Make sure you are on the correct flywheel slot, there are two and I think you want the smaller of the two. It's all in the manual and all over youtube.
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  #17  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 01:00 PM
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are you sure the timing pin is going in all the way into the IP?

did you have the belt off for this? I don't see any reason why you are out. Maybe the system isn't bled? Did you crack all the lines@ the injectors to get the air out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAB View Post
Yep using the small pin, and went through the learning curve of the two slots in the flywheel,
Brandon
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Present:
1960 SII 109"- "Red Square"
1984 90 Tdi- "Yamelo"
1988 RRC- "Chewbacca"
1987 RRC- "Chewy 2"
2008 RRS SC- "The Supersofa"

Past:
1959 SII 88"- "The Little Green Beastie" last seen in NY
1972 SIII 88"- "GreenHELL" now in NC
1988 90 "Eric the Half a Bee" half a truck, sold for parts
1991 RRC- never got a name- long since recycled
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  #18  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 01:53 PM
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Brandon
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The timing pin is definitely all the way in.
I did take the belt off, and yes if the crank is at tdc the cam is on its mark and the injection pump pin slides in there is no logical reason to be out.

I cracked the lines at the injectors going for cyl 1 to cyl 4 over and over for 20 min and it got better but there is NO power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
are you sure the timing pin is going in all the way into the IP?

did you have the belt off for this? I don't see any reason why you are out. Maybe the system isn't bled? Did you crack all the lines@ the injectors to get the air out?
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  #19  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 02:55 PM
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If you have diesel to the injectors then it's down to a few things. Are the injectors popping correctly? Is the turbo boosting? Has the max fuel screw been messed with? I went through something similar. For me putting a new timing belt on fixed many problems (unknown age of the old belt etc). One of the reasons for black smoke (unburned fuel) are the FIP adjustments and if the turbo is boosting. If the turbo isn't boosting enough you will run hot, not make power, and make black smoke. Just saying.
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  #20  
Old April 22nd, 2015, 03:35 PM
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Brandon
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Yes the injectors were fine and the truck ran before the pump was replaced.
I have a new VNT turbo which is pushing plenty of air into it.
The pump is in the stock settings and has not been messed with
The timing belt is new.
The excess un-burnt diesel is white and the truck is barely running as is



Quote:
Originally Posted by El Solis View Post
If you have diesel to the injectors then it's down to a few things. Are the injectors popping correctly? Is the turbo boosting? Has the max fuel screw been messed with? I went through something similar. For me putting a new timing belt on fixed many problems (unknown age of the old belt etc). One of the reasons for black smoke (unburned fuel) are the FIP adjustments and if the turbo is boosting. If the turbo isn't boosting enough you will run hot, not make power, and make black smoke. Just saying.
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