TDI fuel injection part ID please - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 24th, 2014, 10:08 PM
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TDI fuel injection part ID please

OK gurus I found this black rubber cover on the back of my FIP with the little black tube. It is open to the FIP. What is it? Why is it there? What is the meaning of life? Thanks.
Chris

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Old July 24th, 2014, 10:39 PM
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Vent so heat and condensation can escape.

Does there really need to be a meaning of life ?
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Old July 24th, 2014, 10:46 PM
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Does there really need to be a meaning of life ?
There is no meaning to life and God hates us all.
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  #4  
Old July 24th, 2014, 11:19 PM
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Thanks!!! That's what I thought but since I have been messing around wight he FIP I thought I would check. As for life. no meaning needed, just thought I would ask in case there is a test later.

Doug, I have many thanks to send your way for things you have helped me with and a few you are not even aware of (that eventually helped me directly).

Quick questions about FIP tuning if you have the time….
Just installed a double core allisport intercooler and I have turned up the fueling to max per the directions and things seem like they are doing ok. engine temps ok, EGT's ok but when I really get on it (like accelerator to the floor) there is tons of black soot/smoke and EGT's skyrocket). I can drive it without doing that so no worries there. I have read the articles on tuning but need it broken down into simple terms so I can understand and adjust as needed. Here is my question about tuning:

Are these accurate basic descriptions of the possible adjustments?

1. limit screw/smoke screw on top: pre boost fueling, off the line power
2. star wheel: mid range fueling, if i was smoking during normal running this can be adjusted
3. diaphragm: overall fueling, most prevalent with full throttle (smoke)

Thanks.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Solis View Post
Thanks!!! That's what I thought but since I have been messing around wight he FIP I thought I would check. As for life. no meaning needed, just thought I would ask in case there is a test later.

Doug, I have many thanks to send your way for things you have helped me with and a few you are not even aware of (that eventually helped me directly).

Quick questions about FIP tuning if you have the time….
Just installed a double core allisport intercooler and I have turned up the fueling to max per the directions and things seem like they are doing ok. engine temps ok, EGT's ok but when I really get on it (like accelerator to the floor) there is tons of black soot/smoke and EGT's skyrocket). I can drive it without doing that so no worries there. I have read the articles on tuning but need it broken down into simple terms so I can understand and adjust as needed. Here is my question about tuning:

Are these accurate basic descriptions of the possible adjustments?

1. limit screw/smoke screw on top: pre boost fueling, off the line power
2. star wheel: mid range fueling, if i was smoking during normal running this can be adjusted
3. diaphragm: overall fueling, most prevalent with full throttle (smoke)

Thanks.
That's a good clear photo of the back of the pump showing the max fuel screw. I'm I the same boat and had a good thread going on it before the fiasco of a DHS thread totally Charlie-Bravoed my thread. If you want to take a look at that thread and piggy back some questions, I think that may be the best place. We really are doing the exact same thing. Read through and see if we are experiencing the same things.
http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ad.php?t=54931
Did you take any "baseline" boost and EGT readings before installing the Alisport?

To answer part of your question, from what I've learned the star wheel essentially controls the resistance that it takes for turbo boost to move the diaphragm down, increasing fuel through the boost range. Clockwise loosens the spring, allowing less boost to create more fuel. Move the star wheel counter clockwise and it stiffens the spring requiring more boost to move the diaphragm.

I made very small adjustments to the diaphragm and max fuel screw and had big results. I'm told that some engines/pumps are more touchy than others.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 12:05 AM
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I can't see anything from all the dirt...how dare you get that thing so dirty.......without me...)
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Old July 25th, 2014, 12:22 AM
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Thanks again!! The only readings I had were a really busted up and dirty stock IC for which I would hit 1350F quickly on overpasses while doing 60-65. When I got to camp I cleaned the IC and was reading 950-1150 driving home (I have ac and it was on and ambient temp was 100-105F on flat roads doing 65). Climbed a big hill today (too many curves for flat out) in 3rd gear EGT's ran about 1000-1100F and no real smoke out the back. Truck is much peppier now and as long as I don't floor it there isn't much smoke. but once I do get on it it's soot out the back and EGT's sky rocket. haven't seen over 1250 since I put in the new IC. I'm hoping (as we all are) to find the sweet spot for power, engine and EGT temps, and smoke. As I live in the SF Bay Area I invested in a hippy repellant $2 "This Truck Runs On Biodiesel" sticker and have gotten thumbs up from a prius.

I'll play around with the star wheel tomorrow and decrease the diaphragm rotation tomorrow (I went full 90 degrees from where I found the diaphragm to max so it's good to know it doesn't need that much).

------ Follow up post added July 24th, 2014 09:25 PM ------

Shoot that was from this day
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Old July 25th, 2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Solis View Post
Climbed a big hill today (too many curves for flat out) in 3rd gear EGT's ran about 1000-1100F and no real smoke out the back. Truck is much peppier now and as long as I don't floor it there isn't much smoke. but once I do get on it it's soot out the back and EGT's sky rocket. haven't seen over 1250 since I put in the new IC. I'm hoping (as we all are) to find the sweet spot for power, engine and EGT temps, and smoke. As I live in the SF Bay Area I invested in a hippy repellant $2 "This Truck Runs On Biodiesel" sticker and have gotten thumbs up from a prius.

I'll play around with the star wheel tomorrow and decrease the diaphragm rotation tomorrow (I went full 90 degrees from where I found the diaphragm to max so it's good to know it doesn't need that much).
"hippy repellant" - brilliant!


your old stock IC definitely needed to go!
If you're seeing soot when you "get your wellie into it" my guess is that the star wheel could be tightened up a bit to keep the boost pressure from opening up the diaphragm so much, but I'm by no means an expert and am learning by trial and error so, I am hoping some experts chime in on the matter.


I see from the photo that you've removed the anti-tamper measures on the max fuel screw, so how many turns have you put on that? I went 1/2 turn before I had to back it off to only 1/4 because of too much smoke.


I should probably revisit my compression numbers, but last I remember I was running well within specifications. I still would like to see a full 1.0 BAR of boost without having to really wind the engine up.


By far, smoke output is my biggest limitation to putting more fuel into the equation. I have a good margin on the EGTs and even when the max fuel was turned up to the point where it was too smokey, I only got to 1,000F with 4 people loaded and uphill flat out in 5th.


Lets see some pics of the IC install. I'm curious how you mounted it because the tabs Alisport give you (if you get them at all) are average at best (so I'm told). THe efficiency itself is amazing, the air intake pipe to the manifold is cool to the touch after a highway run, but there's quite a bit of resistance to airflow compared to the stock IC, or is it the extreme increase in volume that makes it seem that way?
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  #9  
Old July 25th, 2014, 09:08 AM
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I have never seen a Defender do this.... when you say smoke is it this bad?


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Old July 25th, 2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tjfslaughter View Post
I have never seen a Defender do this.... when you say smoke is it this bad?
That's the hillbilly version of street drifting.
We ROW guys definitely don't want to attract that kind of attention though
Same injector pump though (Bosch VE), so there's a good amount of knowledge base on the Cummins / Dodge forums.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 09:24 AM
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My guess is that you need to A) turn the max fuel down a bit or B) first try a touch of advance on the timing before doing A
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:13 AM
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I have never seen a Defender do this.... when you say smoke is it this bad?


I have seen Robert Davis roll coal on a guy on a motor cycle when he was burning veg in a 300tdi. Knowing Robert I'm sure he did this by accident.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
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I have seen Robert Davis roll coal on a guy on a motor cycle when he was burning veg in a 300tdi. Knowing Robert I'm sure he did this by accident.



Very nice. Hopefully he got the oil from Long John Silvers and the "coal" smelled like old fish grease.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:40 AM
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Yes the anti tamper device is gone but I have never adjusted the max fuel screw. I have always smoked more that I thought I should but never touched the pump as I didn't have an EGT gauge. I will turn it back a 1/4 turn and see what happens. Anyway to tell if it has been adjusted? Is the slot supposed to be vertical?

The smoke isn't that bad but seems to me like that video when I have the pedal to the floor.

I am definitely seeing more than 1000F on EGTs even on flat roads if I am accelerating hard.

The IC install was a PITA. Had to drill new holes for the bottom mounting tabs etc. Havent felt the pipes.

So for today I will turn max fuel screw back a 1/4 turn and if still not happy i'll tighten the star wheel (CCW)

Thanks everyone
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Old July 25th, 2014, 10:47 AM
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My misunderstanding. when you said " and things seem like they are doing ok. engine temps ok, EGT's ok but when I really get" I assumed you had turned up the max fuel screw. I would not mess with that screw if you haven't touched it til you have an EGT.

If you are hitting those temps and haven't mess with the fueling screw, then you're timing is retarded. I would advance it a bit. Start by checking your timing to spec, then go a bit past that. That will bring your temps down quite a bit, and economy and power back up.

It's likely you will need more fuel to match the denser air you are getting from your IC upgrade. If your engine was in tune before the upgrade, you would be short fuel, not in excess.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Solis View Post
Yes the anti tamper device is gone but I have never adjusted the max fuel screw. I have always smoked more that I thought I should but never touched the pump as I didn't have an EGT gauge. I will turn it back a 1/4 turn and see what happens. Anyway to tell if it has been adjusted? Is the slot supposed to be vertical?

The smoke isn't that bad but seems to me like that video when I have the pedal to the floor.

I am definitely seeing more than 1000F on EGTs even on flat roads if I am accelerating hard.

The IC install was a PITA. Had to drill new holes for the bottom mounting tabs etc. Havent felt the pipes.

So for today I will turn max fuel screw back a 1/4 turn and if still not happy i'll tighten the star wheel (CCW)

Thanks everyone


If the anti-tamper collar is removed, somebody definitely "tuned" the max fuel screw. I don't know what the proper position for the slot should be (it likely would vary), but a Bosch expert would know how many turns from top or bottom.


If you were smokey before the IC upgrade and your EGTs were as high as you say, the fueling was most likely increased. Like Mark suggests, take a look at your timing. (again see my thread on "300tdi low end boost and IP tuning" as we discussed timing issues). Another variable would be when was the last time your timing belt was replaced? it could be off a tooth, or stretched leading to improper timing.


I'm also curious in your pre and post IC install boost readings and where your boost gauge is (if you have one). I know that Doug scoffed at a boost gauge and I know that you should be able to feel/hear the boost coming on, but it is really helpful especially when you're trying to tune the IP.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 11:19 AM
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yep. It's ok to assumem that the fueling was F'd with by the PO, but you really HAVE to confirm your timing before doing it. if your timing is retarded and then you start dialing back the fuel, you're not getting anywhere constructively.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 11:39 AM
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So I have checked the timing in the past. Drill bit slid in so I believe that it is ok but will check again.

I know I am on thin ice regarding the timing belt because I dont know when it was changed. 2-3 years ago the engine was out and the local rover guru said it looked ok and didnt change it as I asked him to (yeah i wasnt thrilled about finding that out).
I dont have a boost gauge.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by El Solis View Post
So I have checked the timing in the past. Drill bit slid in so I believe that it is ok but will check again.

I know I am on thin ice regarding the timing belt because I dont know when it was changed. 2-3 years ago the engine was out and the local rover guru said it looked ok and didnt change it as I asked him to (yeah i wasnt thrilled about finding that out).
I dont have a boost gauge.


1) change the belt. It's cheap, easy insurance. Then you'll KNOW its proper
2) install a boost gauge with sending unit at rear of manifold. I forget the thread size, but it's NOT "NPT". Take the blocking screw/bolt out and bring it to a specialty hydraulic machine shop or other specialty shop and they will have the proper adapter to NPT and from there it's easy.
3) as Mark eluded to in my thread, just because the 9mm drillbit or pin fits perfectly that doesn't mean that your timing is perfect unfortunately. First start with a new belt properly installed and then there's also a remote possibility that the drive flange on the front of the injection pump is off.


I mean if you do nothing else in terms of tuning, please install a new belt (especially given your propensity to get dirty). God forbid if that lower wading plug is out, the inside of your timing cover is going to look like the inside of a well-used lawn mower deck!
I had an idea when my belt was replaced and it was under on the miles, but at the upper end of the recommended time. Let's just say it was time!


I know it's frustrating to hear us say that, especially when you probably just had the entire radiator/IC bracket and breakfast panel out when you installed the Alisport. Believe me, I'm frustrated at the prospect of having my injector pump brought into timing spec.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 12:18 PM
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You need to change that belt..ASAP.. And at the same time you can retime the pump..instead of using the 6mm drill bit I believe there is a trick to using a smaller bit and advancing it to one side... Your wife won't be happy if it breaks a belt on your trip soon with kiddies in tow...
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