T.O.B wearing groove into pressure plate fingers - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old October 12th, 2006, 09:12 AM
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T.O.B wearing groove into pressure plate fingers

A while back I posted a thread complaining about a nasty, high-frequency rattle coming from the clutch area after I did my clutch job. I had replaced everything- the bearing, the pressure plate, the disk, the slippers...

I just dropped the tranny again last night to solve the rattle issue, it has less than 2k miles on it since I replaced everything.

Upon getting it apart I see that everything still looks good: the little staple is still holding the bearing against the slippers, the bearing is still in perfect shape, the slave cyl rod is still connected.. All good EXCEPT the bearing has already begun to wear a groove in the pressure plate fingers. This is exactly how my clutch failed last time except this setup has almost no miles on it! What's going on here? Is that normal wear? Does anybody have any clues as to what my rattle is?

It definitely is coming from inside the bell housing, I drove around with a co-driver and the tranny tunnel off again to help pinpoint the source.

Same symptons: Only get the rattle when I put load on the drivetrain, rattle ends when I let my foot off the gas. When I disengage the clutch (pedal in) the rattle in question goes away and I get the different sound of the T.O.B rattling against the tranny shaft, which I can recognize and sounds normal.

One other point: The T.O.B. I got from rovers north was clearly a different make but it fit on the shaft the same and had the approx same dimensions. The only different was total length, but I could not compare because the old T.O.B had worn down against the PP fingers.

Could this possible have anything to do with adjustments made in the master cylinder? Is the T.O.B supposed to ride up against the PP fingers and spin while the clutch is engaged or is it supposed to be pulled way back?

Any help would rule! Thanks guys.
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  #2  
Old October 12th, 2006, 09:32 AM
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I replaced my clutch and a few months later my bearing did the same. Dropped the trnny replaced the bearing and so far everything ok. Mine had pushed the middle out of the TOB
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  #3  
Old October 12th, 2006, 09:38 AM
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Some pictures.

The bearing on the left is the new bearing. In the other pic you can see the groove being worn into the pressure plate.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy salmon
I replaced my clutch and a few months later my bearing did the same. Dropped the trnny replaced the bearing and so far everything ok. Mine had pushed the middle out of the TOB
Can you explain further about pushing the middle out of the T.O.B.?
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  #4  
Old October 12th, 2006, 10:05 AM
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the one on the right looks like the new one. the one on the left looks flattend like the one i replaced
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  #5  
Old October 12th, 2006, 10:57 AM
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The new bearing (on the left) is the new style self centering bearing. The marks on the clutch are pretty typical. If you have noise under power that goes away when the load is removed, I would be looking at the front bearings in the transmission. The gears are helically cut, so the gears thrust back & forth slightly when power (load) is applied & removed. The tapered bearing between the input shaft and the mainshaft is a common failure point on the R380, but I've also seen the front case bearings disintegrate also. The input shaft should have no freeplay in & out and a minimal amount of side to side or up & down play...a couple of mm max measured at the end of the shaft. More than that and you probably have a worn bearing. To that end, you might want to check the crankshaft for fore & aft movement. The crankshaft thrust bearings in the engine can wear and let the crankshaft move too much causing problems with clutch engagement and put excess loads on the transmission bearings. There is a spec for it in the engine OH manual. This is a rare thing but worth a quick look as it is easy to check by levering the crank back & forth with a prybar.
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  #6  
Old October 12th, 2006, 11:09 AM
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Rob - Thanks for the in-depth answer. Just by grabbing the tranny output shaft and wiggling it up and side & side to side I'm going to guess that I'm at the max of proper freeplay. At least a couple MM if not more. There is no forward and aft movement though. I'll try to get a measure on that.

Not that I like it but at least I have a new direction to look in...
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  #7  
Old October 12th, 2006, 12:12 PM
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"The tapered bearing between the input shaft and the mainshaft is a common failure point on the R380"

This is the issue. It is a PITA to get to this bearing to replace it but dollars to donuts this is what is going on. I had a very low mile R380 300Tdi that ONLY had this bearing fail.
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  #8  
Old October 12th, 2006, 12:47 PM
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Keith from Bp told me that if I didn't change the flywheel bushing, it could also make noise as well. It's that gold bushing squished into the middle of the flywheel that your suppost shove grease into.


Neil
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  #9  
Old October 12th, 2006, 03:24 PM
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Did the rattle come beacuse you put the new clutch in, or did it rattle before so you decided to do the clutch? Rob makes some good points.
That gearbox has what, like 100K or more miles on it now?
The Tdi gearbox has a slight rattle too it under lugging loads, but not at any sort of speed (even when new).
Have you checked the underdrive fluid level?
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  #10  
Old October 12th, 2006, 03:42 PM
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is 100k miles to much for an R380?
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  #11  
Old October 12th, 2006, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rover4x4
is 100k miles to much for an R380?
No, just that with the abuse ECR4 has been given over its life... a worn out gearbox bearing would not be something out of the oridinary for the gearbox (or anything else on the truck for that matter). It is going on 7 years on a rebuilt R380 pushing 35s and doing a ton of off road work. The R380 in my current D90 has about 89K miles behind a stock 3.9 and even that has its issues.
I don't know what the cause is, as in internet diagnosis on a truck is about as useful as internet sex IMO, but the parts have seen some tough miles is my point.
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  #12  
Old October 12th, 2006, 05:48 PM
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The rattle started on the first test drive w/ the new clutch. I had not heard this prior to me changing the clutch. Originally I had to change the clutch because the groove the TOB had worn in the pressure plate fingers was so deep it wasn't disengaging the clutch disk anymore.. but no rattle at the time.

The underdrive oil level was pretty darn low. Whoops.

Since it's all out and easy to work on I'd better check that tranny bearing. Am I in for an adventure if I start pulling the front off of the tranny? Is there a part # for the bearing in question? I checked the usual suspects and didn't see the guts of an r380 for sale.

Thanks for all the help.
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  #13  
Old October 12th, 2006, 06:13 PM
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Then other than possibly doing the gearbox bearing for the sake of doing it because it has miles and has some play don't look to that to solve the rattle.
If it started after the clutch install that means that a part is wrong, or that something is installed wrong. Not knowing what got done its like shooting in the dark to try and tell you what the cause is, but you gotta look backwards and see what went wrong on the clutch job. Don't dig into too much other stuff and confuse the issue.
It wasn't anything goofy like a loose bellhosuing bolt rattling around was it?
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Old October 12th, 2006, 09:46 PM
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The sleeve that the TOB rides on can get gunked up and make the TOB stick up against the pressure plate. It needs to be cleaned and lightly oiled to let the TOB move in and out freely.

Hope that helps. You need to send it to Rob if the transmission bearing needs to be replaced. The entire case will need to be dissassembled. You can not access it from the front plate.

What happened to your road trip?

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  #15  
Old October 12th, 2006, 11:57 PM
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Alright, forget that then. I'll put it back together with a new pilot bushing and hope for the best. If it's still going on then maybe I'll swing by ABQ and see rob and KC.

I'm still heading out west. First it was delayed by that ford manifold stud.. which I decided to stay and fix while I had a nice garage to work in and now it's being delayed by the rover tranny. probably next week or the week after. Depending on when parts get in.

I'd really like to change something significant before I put it back together. That would make me feel much better.
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  #16  
Old October 13th, 2006, 10:56 AM
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It takes me about 4 hours to take apart and redo an R380 once it is out of the truck. As you have it out I would swap out that front bearing. When you see how small it is you will know why it is an issue. At this point (100k) it might be worth doing all the bearings and all the balk rings. The kit is $300-400 from RDS. While it is apart check for wear on the synchro hubs. Especially the 1-2 one.
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  #17  
Old October 13th, 2006, 11:27 AM
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Before you tear your transmission apart and disable your vehicle longterm. Is the sleeve that the TOB rides on clean and does it move freely? Is the clutch slave cylinder sticking internally?

Ron would love to dare you on to dissassemble the trans, but just leave it alone. It takes some LR tools or some codgy operation to get the race off the mainshaft and disassemble it.

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  #18  
Old October 13th, 2006, 12:00 PM
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Heh.

Pendy: Last time I had the tranny down (a month ago) I brake-cleaned the shaft/sleeve that the TOB bearing rides on and put a very thin film of grease on it. This time around it looked very clean (e.g. no dirty grease).

The slave cylinder was also brand new at the time, but I have not checked the operation of the slave cylinder visually or anything. I'll check the operation before I bolt it to the tranny this go round?

I think 2k on a rebuilt unit would quickly become more economical when you start adding up my man hours & mistakes. Hmmm. Advice? I was supposed to be on the road start of next week but I've already told my better half that it's going to be a while longer whilst I deal with this transmission.

Ship my unit off to someone?
Drop 2k on a rebuilt?
Ignore it and bolt it back up?
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