Symptoms of incorrect TDI timing - Defender Source
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Old July 16th, 2012, 08:50 AM
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mark kellgren
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Symptoms of incorrect TDI timing

so what happens when the injections pump timing is retarded or too advanced? I'm around 60k on my belt, and I'm assuming that it must have stretched a little bit at this piont, and that my timing (have never checked or set IP timing before) must be off a little. Does belt stretch advance or retard the timing?

Haven't found a thread that discusses this. I'm off to Africa next week for a month, but when I get back, it is time to seriously address this as if there's a little more power and/or economy I can regain by doing my timing, I want to do it. Unfortunately, the 2.8 while similiar to the 300 tdi, is not exactly the same. The locking pin is in a completely different position that I have yet to located (M&D says its somewhere by the oil dipstick).
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:04 AM
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When the IP pump is retarded the engine sounds smoother but EGT´s go up a lot, you loose power and get worse MPG. When advanced, the engine sounds noisier or with a knocking sound when revving it from idle (like mine). If too advanced will not fire up as it will get stucked because of compression not beeing able to release from too closed valves. If way too retarded will not fire up either and will look like a blower machine since will not get compression because open valves.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defeyago View Post
When the IP pump is retarded the engine sounds smoother but EGT´s go up a lot, you loose power and get worse MPG. When advanced, the engine sounds noisier or with a knocking sound when revving it from idle (like mine). If too advanced will not fire up as it will get stucked because of compression not beeing able to release from too closed valves. If way too retarded will not fire up either and will look like a blower machine since will not get compression because open valves.
your first description of retarded is an exact match to my current symptoms. thanks!
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:38 AM
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I changed my timing belt recently and from your description it's now slightly advanced. I can hear a slight knock at times but not all the time. I have also noticed more smoke when overrun. There didn't use to be smoke at all while driving but now I have white smoke when stepping on gas. I have been meaning to check and fine tune the timing but I don't know if I have a problem to begin with.

When changing the belt I also noticed that the bell housing notch (where the timing pin goes in) didn't quite line up to 6 o'clock position when the fuel pump notch is aligned and ready for the timing pin. I turned the engine a few laps and although both pins would go in the bell hosting was not exactly centered. Is this a problem?
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:43 AM
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To check and set timing, my hesitation is having the tools. Do I only need the locking pin for the flywheel and the timing pin for the IP, or is there more special tools I'll need that I'm not tracking?

Santiago, you have the 300tdi with the TGV turbo right? Not the complete 2.8?
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Old July 16th, 2012, 11:28 AM
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Not sure exactly what you need for the 2.8 but for the 300tdi I got the timing kit from King Tools. It contains all the pins along with a pulley puller which came in handy when removing the Crankshaft Pulley. The bolt on the Crankshaft pulley is usually also a challenge. I used a handmade tool I borrowed similar to what the trail fitter video guy made.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 11:54 AM
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but are the other tools needed for adjusting timing, or are they for doing things like removing the timing belt cover and replacing the belt/pullies? What tools are needed to only adjust the timing?
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Old July 16th, 2012, 12:00 PM
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For changing the timing belt no other tools are needed. The hardest part is getting in there. You also need a seal puller if you plan on replacing the crankshaft seals.

For adjusting the timing you just need metric drill bits and Steve's instructions: http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...eferrerid=4450
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Old July 16th, 2012, 12:48 PM
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It can be the slightest adjustment sometimes on the ip to hit the sweet spot. I adjusted mine millimeters at a time and did it about 6 times to get it right. I would change the belt if you are at 60k not just adjust it. It doesnt take long on a 200, not sure of yours though.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 12:50 PM
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How do you know when you have hit the sweet spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadstone
It can be the slightest adjustment sometimes on the ip to hit the sweet spot. I adjusted mine millimeters at a time and did it about 6 times to get it right. I would change the belt if you are at 60k not just adjust it. It doesnt take long on a 200.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manimal View Post

For adjusting the timing you just need metric drill bits and Steve's instructions: http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...eferrerid=4450

To clarify for others, step one on that reference thread is to lock the flywheel, so the flywheel lock and 9mm drill is what's needed.


I'll be changing that belt in the spring, unless folks think that is too risky.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 01:06 PM
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Mark.

If I were you I would just remove the timing cover now and take a look at the belt just to see what condition it is in. Keep the rad and intercooler in place. If there are no significant amount of shavings and the teeth of the belt are in good shape I would leave it until spring.

My belt was over the recommended time limit but under in terms of milage. I wish I would have just done a check up first while keeping rad and intercooler in place. My belt was actually in excellent shape so I could have probably put another couple thousand miles on it without an issue.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 01:19 PM
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Carl has good advise but also be advised if the belt fails it can be a catastrophic failure, bending valves and destroying pistons. Changing the belt can be fiddley but with patients it is actually a pretty easy job. I just advanced my timing a bit and boy did the EGT's go down, a lot. Not too much more smoke but the engine now sounds more like my tractor.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 01:20 PM
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good advice. remind me, to pull the cover, I don't need any new gaskets or drain the coolant? is it as simple as unbolting it and pulling it off? assuming I need to pull shroud and fan off. Can you clarify?
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Old July 16th, 2012, 01:23 PM
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You're right. Timing belts are cheap. Engine rebuilds are not. Do this at your own peril and I wouldn't push it too far. This could work the other way around too. If your belt is in really poor shape I would chance it much sooner. Use good judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MC22958
Carl has good advise but also be advised if the belt fails it can be a catastrophic failure, bending valves and destroying pistons. Changing the belt can be fiddley but with patients it is actually a pretty easy job. I just advanced my timing a bit and boy did the EGT's go down, a lot. Not too much more smoke but the engine now sounds more like my tractor.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC22958 View Post
Carl has good advise but also be advised if the belt fails it can be a catastrophic failure, bending valves and destroying pistons.
Not on a Rover TDI. The valves hit the pistons square. Bent pushrods and possibly broken rockers are the worst damage that happens.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 01:27 PM
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Just looking through the 2.8 service manual and it has the belt change very 74.6k miles, and there's also a toothed belt inspection hole that I've never looked into to visual check the belt condition. Maybe that's another enhancement that Internation did to the 300 tdi design.

Ok, so I looked through the 2.8 service manual some more to find what's involved with pulling the timing cover, and it looks like I have to pull off the crank pulley, so I need that tool as well. I might as well get the 300 tdi kit. Anybody know the cheapest source? I don't want to pay for the full mechanics kit I've seen that has the 200 tdi tools as well. just need the 300 tdi tools.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 02:38 PM
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I got my timing kit at Paddocks.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Not on a Rover TDI. The valves hit the pistons square. Bent pushrods and possibly broken rockers are the worst damage that happens.
I guess the piston damage I have seen after a broken belt was from something else?
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Old July 17th, 2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
To check and set timing, my hesitation is having the tools. Do I only need the locking pin for the flywheel and the timing pin for the IP, or is there more special tools I'll need that I'm not tracking?

Santiago, you have the 300tdi with the TGV turbo right? Not the complete 2.8?
Yes Mark, mine is a 300tdi with TGV, 2.8IP and uprated IC. With my mechanic we advance or retard the IP just by pulling out the round plate that is on the timing cover, We loose the 3 screws and holding the IP nut carefully (so it doesn´t move from actual position) with a wrench and rotate the IP nut just a little bit to one side or the other depending what we want to gain.

Cheers,
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