starter solenoid assembly (84 110 3.5L V8) - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old November 6th, 2007, 07:39 PM
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Charles Galpin
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starter solenoid assembly (84 110 3.5L V8)

I have nothing to lose so I decided to try "fix" my starter solenoid which has a broken spade connector. I started disassembling it and probably pulled on the ned cap a little harder than I should have before realizing I needed to undo some soldered wires to disassemble. I don't think I did any damage though.

However I should have been paying more attention as I separated the cap as I now have 2 questions

1. There are two primary wires that go through holes in the cap and get soldered in place. Next to each is a smaller wire. On one side it is bent over a "welded" to the deck of the solenoid - hard to tell if this was intentional or not. The other side appeared to be pointing straight up, parallel to the main wire. Does anyone know what the proper orientation of these wires should be?

2. On the back side of the stud that holds the spade connector I need to re-attach, is a little plate with a leg on it that looks kind of like a switch. Since it moves freely right now I am unsure of the orientation it should really be. Does anyone knoe which way it should point?

I have annotated the following pictures that show the issues.

http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02380
http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02383
http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02385
http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02391

Besides advising me to get as better camera, learn to take close ups with it, or buy a new solenoid, what do you think?

thanks
charles
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  #2  
Old November 6th, 2007, 11:11 PM
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jim pendleton
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I see starters are on sale cheap on ebay.

I have some old core starters like you have apart if you want to fiddle with yours.

After the cables are installed of course.

JP
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  #3  
Old November 7th, 2007, 08:59 AM
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Charles Galpin
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This is for Janey. She's been sucking up my time so I haven't touched the D in weeks I have a good section of the engine wiring harness out of Janey to repair some breaks, and plan to use the battery cables on her when I put it all back together. I now know where a tractor supply is, but it's a 2 hour round trip to go get more cables so plan to pull the D ones before going there. This necessitates me clearing out a bay in the garage, and so on... LOL

Is the starter for a newer defender the same as on the 3.5L V8? Or at the very least is the solenoid the same?

thanks
charles

Follow-up Post:

Let me just clarify that I believe this is a lucas 3M100 or M78R which was superseded by RTC5228 which was superseded by RTC6061 (or RTC6061N not sure of the difference) which is apparently the same as NAD101190. From what I can tell this is not compatible with a 3.9L but I'm not sure

This ebay ad says its good on a 3.5L off a range rover:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-S...spagenameZWDVW
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  #4  
Old November 7th, 2007, 09:26 AM
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Charles, welding cable can be had much closer than going out to TSC. There's a welding shop in Alexandria that has it on the shelf.
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  #5  
Old November 7th, 2007, 09:53 AM
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Charles Galpin
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Well, alexandria is no closer to me, but there is a welding place not too far. I was hoping to find pre-made cables the right length though. I haven't looked closely at the ones Pendy sent, but I'm not sure I'd be bale to make good connections myself.
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  #6  
Old November 7th, 2007, 11:04 AM
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You can make them fairly easily -- the terminals are available all over the net, and Brian has the crimping tool you need. he redid all of his cables and they look really, really good.
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  #7  
Old November 7th, 2007, 11:30 AM
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Charles, If you'd like to replace the whole thing, I got a rebuilt Bosch starter/solenoid from a place in Springfield (I think). They even delivered it. I think it cost about $150-ish. Whatever the price was, it was cheaper than the normal online sources.

If you want, I can look up the info for you.
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  #8  
Old November 7th, 2007, 11:52 AM
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buyts

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin
This is for Janey. She's been sucking up my time so I haven't touched the D in weeks I have a good section of the engine wiring harness out of Janey to repair some breaks, and plan to use the battery cables on her when I put it all back together. I now know where a tractor supply is, but it's a 2 hour round trip to go get more cables so plan to pull the D ones before going there. This necessitates me clearing out a bay in the garage, and so on... LOL

Is the starter for a newer defender the same as on the 3.5L V8? Or at the very least is the solenoid the same?

thanks
charles

I thought I saw some for 89$ on ebay recently. Yeah I have some of the old style starters you could have parts off of. The newer starters work on your older engine. Put the cables on the D. Do I need to send cables and starter parts. I got a reason to go to TSC next couple days.. Besides they have a cute checkout girl there I like to stalk.

JP
Follow-up Post:

Let me just clarify that I believe this is a lucas 3M100 or M78R which was superseded by RTC5228 which was superseded by RTC6061 (or RTC6061N not sure of the difference) which is apparently the same as NAD101190. From what I can tell this is not compatible with a 3.9L but I'm not sure

This ebay ad says its good on a 3.5L off a range rover:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-S...spagenameZWDVW

the Pendy
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  #9  
Old November 7th, 2007, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendy
the Pendy
Come again?

BTW, couple bits of info. Last night I started repairing my wiring harness. There was a yellow/brown wire severed which I believe is my charging problem, plus a few other nicked, and one that looked like it had been shorted and literally melted the plastic sheath off it. As I traced it through, I found it had been cut off further on in the loom (so removed it). At that cut was another wire cut off, and it traces back to..... the spade connector I was trying to fix on the starter solenoid. So it would not get used even if I fixed the bloody thing! When I pulled the harness I could tell some "work" had been done before, with a few wires routed outside of the harness, at least one to the coil, and I assume these changes were to fix the broken spade connector issue .

Ok, so I also pulled the actual starter today (the other day I didn't have a allen head socket) and compared it to my old D90 starter which I believe is still good. The D90 starter is a NAD101490 which is listed as an alternate part number for mine. The only difference I can tell that would matter are the solenoid connections. The old one has 2 posts for brown wires, which are joined when the solenoid is engaged. The newer one has a single post. The old one had that extra spade connector, the new one just has one.

So, I am going to try 1 or 2 things.

1. try my newer starter with all brown wires to the same post. With my harness repairs I am hoping my charging circuit will be fixed, and the previous changes to the wiring harness will accommodate the new starter.

2. put my old one back together and see if it still works.

I'll go from there if either fail

thanks all
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  #10  
Old November 7th, 2007, 12:44 PM
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Jim Cheney
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Your experiences are further evidence that Janey's functioning is a matter of deus ex machina.
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  #11  
Old November 7th, 2007, 01:11 PM
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Time for a painless harness?
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  #12  
Old November 7th, 2007, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin
I have nothing to lose so I decided to try "fix" my starter solenoid which has a broken spade connector. I started disassembling it and probably pulled on the ned cap a little harder than I should have before realizing I needed to undo some soldered wires to disassemble. I don't think I did any damage though.

However I should have been paying more attention as I separated the cap as I now have 2 questions

1. There are two primary wires that go through holes in the cap and get soldered in place. Next to each is a smaller wire. On one side it is bent over a "welded" to the deck of the solenoid - hard to tell if this was intentional or not. The other side appeared to be pointing straight up, parallel to the main wire. Does anyone know what the proper orientation of these wires should be?

2. On the back side of the stud that holds the spade connector I need to re-attach, is a little plate with a leg on it that looks kind of like a switch. Since it moves freely right now I am unsure of the orientation it should really be. Does anyone knoe which way it should point?
In 95% of the cases, you have to unsolder starter soleniods to get them out of their case. I had to unsoldered mine on the '95 D. I realized in the process that my 60W[?] iron does not really cut it to heat up such large metalic items! But then..... 150W irons are what....$20? I'll buy one next time I need to play with my starter [which has been working perfectly since if was put back together] or need to wire the second battery/winch setup as I want to crimp the connectors and fill it with solder.

I guess your thread begs the question: beside the broken connector, what else is wrong with the solenoid? If nothing is wong with it, then screw a new connector back on and solder it to the stud/whatever is still in there. No need to replace a solenoid that is in good working condition (unless you want to have a spare).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin
I have annotated the following pictures that show the issues.

http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02380
http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02383
http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02385
http://lhsw.com/gallery/janey_stuff/DSC02391

Besides advising me to get as better camera, learn to take close ups with it, or buy a new solenoid, what do you think?
<personal_note>Put "focus-free camera" on Charles' Xmas list and show him how to edit digital pictures on his Mac [One of those Target-$20-key-chain camera should do]</personal_note>
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  #13  
Old November 7th, 2007, 03:23 PM
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Tony that's blasphemy!

Loic, the reasons for not just putting it back together are

1. I may have damaged it before unsoldering the wires by pulling on the too hard (maybe not)
2. See question #1 above
3. At this point it's additional work.

I have another starter so I might as well use it. But I suspect I'll do it anyway and test it at some point to have it as a spare. Crap I dunno, I think about it and maybe try that first. Thing works great - can put it in gear and crank it over to pull myself into parking lots when I break down

My 100W soldering iron did it, but It was painful. In fact just soldering 2 wires is more painful than I'd like with it.

The battery door to my camera broke yesterday so I have an excuse to get a new one But really it works fine unless you try get too close to something, and it stops focusing. I am sure it's just a limitation of the lens. I don't think editing these in any way would have helped.

charles
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  #14  
Old November 7th, 2007, 03:32 PM
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There was nothing wrong with Janey when you picked her up and now you are going around "fixing" things . . . you better start sacraficing chickens if you want her to run again.

Ron
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  #15  
Old November 7th, 2007, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin
Come again?

My message is hidden in your quote.

JP
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  #16  
Old November 7th, 2007, 04:23 PM
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Jim, sorry I missed that. Ok. Let me get a few chickens and put this thing back together tonight. If all goes well, I wont need more cables.

Regardless I plan on working on the D90 this weekend - get the radiator done, and the cables too.

"There was nothing wrong with Janey when you picked her up". ROFL.

charles
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  #17  
Old November 7th, 2007, 09:20 PM
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Alrighty, got my harness put back together. Looks like I buggered up my solenoid, but at least I know :D

A starter for a 3.9L V8 works perfectly fine (at least how mine is wired)!

So my charging system is fixed, light and all. Bravo.

There was one last wire that was cut off in the harness, which I foolishly pulled before taping it up and reinstalling. This wire went to ...... the oil pressure switch. Yes, I wasn't surprised either So, right now I think the oil pressure light is wired to the coil, and at higher rpms is getting enough voltage to dim it, but it glows at lower rpms.

So, one last question hopefully on this thread (funny how it's come full circle). I tested the oil pressure switch with a volt meter - the switch connected to the negative terminal and the battery to positive. It seems to be a solid ground when off (15V+), and with the engine running the voltage dropped to ~9V. Is this normal? I have a actual pressure gauge I'll try setup, but just want to make sure this is expected for the idiot light setup. Mainly cautious because the wire I think I need to hook it up to currently is connected to the coil.

Oh, my oil pump has 3 things attached to it. The pressure switch, and other thing that looks like a pressure switch but has the connector broken off, and I think the third is a temperature sender with nothing connected to it either. Anyone know if this is normal? I'll have to take pictures.
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  #18  
Old November 8th, 2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin

"There was nothing wrong with Janey when you picked her up". ROFL.

charles
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  #19  
Old November 13th, 2007, 11:23 PM
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Mmh, I should have posted an update to this thread last week. I undid the wire from the ballast resister to the oil pressure light, and re-attached the oil pressure light to the oil pressure switch. Oil pressure light appears to work as it should now, and didn't see any negative side effects of disconnecting the existing setup.

Until possibly today. I broke down today and although I need to do further testing, my single handed roadside testing showed no spark (had fuel at the carbs). I got a generic replacement coil before the tow truck arrived but it didn't help, and still need to check them with a voltmeter (the battery died on mine so can't check resistance). I show 14+ volts on the ballast resistor, and about 6V across the positive and negative terminals on the coil.

Can anyone think of a reason my change could have caused a problem with the coil operation?

charles
p.s. Got her finally properly registered and titled today!
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  #20  
Old November 13th, 2007, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin
p.s. Got her finally properly registered and titled today!
Just make sure schatzman hasn't applied for a dup yet!
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