Slow cranking 200TDI on engine stand - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 18th, 2016, 10:45 AM
richord
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Richard Ordowich
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Slow cranking 200TDI on engine stand

I have a Discovery 200TDI I have been refurbishing to replace my 2.5TD in my 90. The engine is on an engine stand. I replaced the timing belt, rear seal, rocker gasket etc.
I reinstalled the starter and filled the engine with oil and tried to crank it over just to check things out without starting it. There are no fuel connections or radiator etc. connected on this engine. I connected a fully charged battery to the starter. The engine cranks slowly and struggles to turn over. I removed the glow plugs and the engine turns over fast.
I expected the engine to crank normally even with the glow plugs installed.
Any thoughts on why it would turn over so slowly and struggle with the glow plugs installed?
I tried the same test on my truck by removing the fuel injector wire so it would not start and that engine turns over fast without struggling.




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  #2  
Old July 18th, 2016, 11:08 AM
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bad ground to starter?
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Old July 18th, 2016, 11:14 AM
richord
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Richard Ordowich
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I removed the ground and cleaned it up when I removed the oil pan. I connected the positive directly from the battery to the starter. I guess it could be the starter is defective. It spins fine with no load and with the glow plugs out the engine turns over fine but then of course there is no pressure in the cylinders. I'm concerned that there is something inside the engine that is preventing it from turning over but with the glow plugs removed it turns over quickly.
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  #4  
Old July 18th, 2016, 11:26 AM
Naplm00
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Matthew
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Does tge engine turn freely by hand with the plugs removed? What other work have you done?

Timing belt on. Correctly?
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Old July 18th, 2016, 11:53 AM
richord
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Yes, it turns over easily by hand with the plugs removed. the timing belt is on correctly. I followed the instructions and hand cranked it after installing and before putting the cover back on. There are no strange noises inside the engine when I crank it. I took the rocker cover off and the valves open and close without any restrictions.


When I crank it with the glow plugs installed, it appears there is a lot of back pressure from the engine. With them removed, the engine spins freely.
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  #6  
Old July 18th, 2016, 12:28 PM
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Please forgive my focus on your ground...how exactly is the ground terminal of the battery connected to the starter?

I've had three starters go bad, but only from the solenoid, never the starter motor itself. The failures were pretty much no-start.

All slow-start failures on my 200tdi were bad ground failures.
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  #7  
Old July 18th, 2016, 12:29 PM
Naplm00
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Sounds pretty normal. I'm a pretty big dude and cranking mine by hand with it all bolted up isn't easy. If no mechanical issues when cranking with plugs out I'd say starter or connection to starter.

Good news is that starters are cheapish. From 175-219 ebay and a board member.

Or if you have time disassemble the starter and replace the contacts, or take it to a shop like Edison generator on rt 1.

Part number Err5009
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Old July 18th, 2016, 01:02 PM
richord
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Ed, no problem with the focus on the ground strap. Sometimes the most obvious problem is the solution. The battery ground is connected to the ground strap which is bolted to the oil pan. I will try connecting the negative from the battery directly to the starter.


I don't know the history of the starter so perhaps to be on the safe side I will order a replacement as well.


I was most concerned that there was something inside the engine preventing it from turning over since, I have not seen this engine running yet. I built a stand to enable me to start it up before installing it in the truck and using the starter motor to turn it over was a first test before setting it up for a full run-up.
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  #9  
Old July 18th, 2016, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richord View Post
Ed, no problem with the focus on the ground strap. Sometimes the most obvious problem is the solution. The battery ground is connected to the ground strap which is bolted to the oil pan. I will try connecting the negative from the battery directly to the starter.
That sounds a little different from normal - the ground strap of the 200tdi is attached directly to the block (just left of the starter) at the factory. Connecting the ground strap to the oil pan doesn't sound like it would necessarily be a problem, but it isn't the most direct connection to your starter that you can make. The things that would concern me are the oil pan gasket and the paint on the oil pan.

If you attach the negative directly to the starter, I would really recommend you attach it to any of the two bolts or the nut that holds the starter to the block. Another alternative would be directly to the block.
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  #10  
Old July 18th, 2016, 01:46 PM
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Robert Davis
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If the starter is bad, we have a 3.1KW starter that will spin the engine like a sewing machine.
Stock starter is 2.2KW and have them new as well.
Sold lots of them to members here.
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  #11  
Old July 18th, 2016, 02:07 PM
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Ed, your last suggestion suddenly woke me up. When I took off the oil pan I installed a new gasket and sealant. Which if course insolates the pan from the engine to a great degree!


This is where the ground strap was when I got the engine so I of course put it in the same place! I will move it as you suggested and see what happens. thanks for the advice. Only goes to show that talking through a problem is the best way to find solutions!
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Old July 18th, 2016, 02:53 PM
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Worth a try, but the oil pan bolts are screwed into the engine block and should provide sufficient contact.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 02:16 PM
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Just to bring this saga to an end here is what I discovered:


1. As per the suggestion above, I relocated the ground. This helped in reducing the voltage drop.
2. The starter motor output was not enough to properly turn over the engine. I removed it and powered off the battery with no load for about 2 minutes. After I reinstalled, it turned over the engine with no problem with the glow plugs all installed. I don't trust this starter so I ordered Robert's high out starter.
3. I tested the glow plugs and discovered 3 of them were shot. That was just a discovery unrelated to the starter motor problem.


So starter motors can go bad and just not output enough power.


Thanks for the help guys. I fixed two related problems and found a third one I was unware of and would have appeared when I tried to start the engine.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 07:20 AM
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I installed the 3.1KW 200/300TDI - 2.5N/A Starter I bought from Robert Davis. IT definitely spins the engine faster than the starter on my 2.5TD.


I think I could get up to 30 MPH just on the starter!


Relocated and installed a new ground strap and the new starter and problems solved.


Thanks Robert, Ed and others for wise advice.
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  #15  
Old July 31st, 2016, 09:00 AM
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Richard, those 3.1 KW starters sure do spin the engine a lot faster than the stock unit.
Glad you are squared away.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #16  
Old July 31st, 2016, 11:16 AM
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you may need to install a 30/40 amp relay to the starter solenoid circuit due to "amperage load". this load will fry your ignition switch.
with a relay you still get 12 to 14 volts and maintain a proper level of amperes load with out compromising other circuits. P/s the V8's use a relay and amp load is not near that of a cold diesel and its high compression.
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  #17  
Old July 31st, 2016, 03:28 PM
richord
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Richard Ordowich
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Carlos, I suspect the solenoid would draw about the same current which is what the ignition switch is connected to. I expect the starter motor may draw more. I may put on a bigger cable to the motor since I am putting on a new cable anyway.
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  #18  
Old July 31st, 2016, 05:07 PM
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Robert Davis
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Richard:
What Carlos is explaining, the ignition switch contacts will eventually burn out handling the load to energize the starter solenoid and is suggesting you install a relay to deal with the load.
A relay is an electric switch made to take various current loads by their ratings 30, 40, 70 100, 200 AMP.
You hook the relay to the ignition switch and it draws about 1.5 amps instead of say 40 amps.
The relay has an electro-magnet and when internal coils are energized by turning the ignition switch to start, it closes a set of high tension contacts that send battery (+) over to the starter solenoid, thus protecting the contacts in the start position of the ignition switch, because all they new do is energize the relay.
Sounds complicated, but pretty simple.
Google 12V relay and you can educate yourself if you are not already "in the know".
Hope this helps by adding some value.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #19  
Old August 1st, 2016, 08:38 AM
richord
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Richard Ordowich
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Thanks Carlos and Robert.


Robert does this solenoid draw more current than the standard solenoid?


I can see the benefits of a relay and being an electrical engineer hooking one up is easy for me. I grew up shocking myself
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