simple question about the starter motor - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old January 27th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Emerson00
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simple question about the starter motor

I bought a starter from RN for the RRC. They had a used Mean Green, and it was cheaper than the OEM.

There are three wires leading to the starter - one from the battery positive, one that leads, i think, to the ground, and one small wire that goes... not sure where - to the relay?

The MG starter has two large bolts for wire connections and one small screw for another. The small wire is reasonably obvious. The two larger wires are not.

On the MG starter, there is a large dia wire going from the solenoid (I guess?) to the starter body' this large wire runs to one of the wire connections.

Does the battery cable go to this wire, or to the other one which is simply attached to the starter body?

Follow-up Post:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...o/HPIM0671.jpg

photo of the motor, not connected.

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

-the invisible guy
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  #2  
Old January 28th, 2008, 10:02 PM
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Charles Galpin
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Damn, you really are invisible

The starter grounds through the housing so all the leads are hot. The other thick lead goes to the alternator I think, but either way just put both on the large post (hard to tell from that picture but on an oem one they both go on the same post).

The small one that's obvious where it goes on the starter is the "actuator" it sends voltage to the solenoid to throw the solenoid gear out and engage the starter. If your starter relay ever goes, or you have switch problems, you can start the truck by running a temporary wire to inside the cab and touch it to the positive terminal of the battery when you need to start.

hth
charles
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  #3  
Old January 29th, 2008, 09:48 AM
Emerson00
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As to the starter - there are two posts on the MG starter - one visible here (bottom of the unit as installed) and one post on top of the starter as installed which is not visible here.

The "top" post has a rubber cap on it... it would make sense, therefore, not to attached a lead to it as it would negate the benefit of the rubber cap. That would be in line with your suggestion to attach both leads to the lower/visible post, right?

I think I might have someone willing to give me a bit o guidance/a hand with this.

My goal is to get it running and THEN to get it stabilized. I need the truck legal ASAP. There's a guy near Baltimore who I might have take a look at it for suggestions on stabilizing the rust issues I've got. I can't help but wonder if it's too far gone now - truck isn't worth what I have in it anyway.

Is this the relay(s) I need to check?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...o/HPIM0670.jpg

Yikes, think there's a leak somewhere under the decker panel?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...o/HPIM0676.jpg

Thanks, Charles, for your time. Invisibility was only cool in the movies.
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  #4  
Old January 29th, 2008, 12:38 PM
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I usually caution people when dealing with stuff, but really I don't think you can go wrong here. Diconnect the battery, put both leads on the same post and then reconnect the battery. You'll know if there is a problem right away

I don't think you need to mess with the relay unless you are not even hearing a click at the starter.

Man you were not kidding about rust. I'd say focus on what's required to get legal and adress the rest later.

hth
charles
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  #5  
Old January 29th, 2008, 01:05 PM
Emerson00
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I started down this road because there was no click at the starter... but that was even with the battery cables connected directly TO the starter.

I think I have rust issues. Not sure... but I think so.
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  #6  
Old January 29th, 2008, 01:09 PM
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Charles Galpin
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Oh crap. First thing you should have done was put the ignition in the on position and jumped a hot wire to that small spade connector on the solenoid. Your starter is likely fine and you just need a relay or could be bad grounds.

charles
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  #7  
Old January 29th, 2008, 01:15 PM
Emerson00
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I did that - the only way it'd make any noise was with the battery connected AND the ignition turned to the start position and then it was an odd "tick tick tick tick..." almost like water pouring into a metal bucket.

I don't know anything about 12V electrical, so I'm out of my depth here. hence the constant questions. (and I do appreciate your suggestions and time)
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  #8  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 02:04 PM
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OK... connected both cables to the single post - the one visible in the picture above.

I connected the battery cable to the battery and put a jumper pack on it... nothing. It didn't do a thing, except the cable clamps got warm, fast. The interior dome light (my instant check that there's power in the system(s)) nor any other lights or electrical systems functioned at all. At one point I moved the black clamp to the alternator bolt and it started smoking. ??

It seems to me connecting the positive battery cable to the same post as a ground would be a problem... I think the ground cable is broken - there's a flex point in the cable halfway between the starter motor and the ground point on the frame (which is suprisingly clean).

Suggestions? I'm going to run up to the local auto parts store and see if they've got something for a ground cable so I can replace what I think is broken.


Meantime (bear with me): is there a logical reason that either the ground cable or the positive cable should be connected to one post or the other on the battery? The only significant differences are that a) the top post (not seen in the pic above) has a rubber cover and b) the bottom post is right next to the small wire connection.
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  #9  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 02:12 PM
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Sorry I didn't see your previous post. The tick tick tick definately sounds like a bad ground. You can test that by hooking up a temporary ground to the starter casing (jumper cables work well).

But the getting hot doesn't sound right and smoking is definately bad so don't do that

Going back to your starter, did you get the old one bench tested at the parts place?

charles
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  #10  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 05:16 PM
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Progress... I think.

Skipping the preliminary "I know nothing"...

I had the ground cable attached to one of the posts on the starter, because I thought it was that way originally (different starter motor?)... that was shorting everything out.

So I disconnected the ground from the frame (left it hanging in contact with nothing) and the truck would then try (TRY) to turn over with a jumper cable and the key turned to the start position (YEAH!). The battery's flat, but it was turning, so that's progress.

However, the original had a ground cable to the frame... so I figure it must be there somewhere.
I decided the ground cable must, therefore, be attached to a starter motor mounting bolt if it can't be attached to either post on the starter. I had everything attached, and as soon as I connected a power source, the engine feebly started turning... no key in the ignition.

Lots of sparks on that one, though!

Now I'm going to remove the ground cable, but it seems to me there was a ground from Land Rover, so there should be a ground now... Is it possible there's that much difference in the OEM to Mean Green starter motors that a ground becomes unecessary?

Alternatively, what else could be going on that would prompt the engine to turn over with no key? I'm guessing the wiring configuration is wrong, but perhaps something else?

Follow-up Post:

Problem solved... just drove Humpty Dumpty to the gas station...

I love driving this truck.

Thanks all, for help, time, thoughts...
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  #11  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 10:46 PM
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So what was the problem?
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  #12  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 10:58 PM
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Beyond my incompetence? LOL...

I had connected the ground to the live post (first)
Then I had the pos wire and the small wire crossed: the positive cable is large and barely reaches around the mean green - so when I attached it, there was no room, and it must have been touching the small red wire leading (don't know where, think it's the trucks' electronics).

So I readjusted the positive cable to give it some clearance from the small wire, moved the ground to a mounting bolt for the starter motor, and gave it the juice of a jump pack and jumper cables - it came to life instantly.

I couldn't see the cross of the positive and small cable - it looked like at most the small cable was touching the rubber boot on the positive cable. I figured for the starter to be turning over without the key in the ignition, there must be power where it didn't belong, and knew it wasn't the ground, and that the ground and positive cables both had good connection (zero resistance)... So I tried a hunch with the little cable.

It's been 2 or 3 months since the goofy thing moved on it's own power... i forgot how nice it was to drive. Everyone at our superbowl get-together is tired of hearing "did I mention I finished the land rover today?"

Tomorrow I'll buy a new battery and schedule an alignment and inspection; it'll fail the inspection due to the remaining rust damage to the frame and additional rust-through on the bulkhead, but I want to be sure that rust is all that's left. I'm trying to get in touch with Flagg's guy in Baltimore about fixing some of the rust.

I'm on cloud nine - never knew a damn thing about working on cars and my list of fixes on this thing is growing long...

Thanks, again, Charles, for your time.
[/visibility]
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  #13  
Old February 4th, 2008, 05:27 PM
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cool- now that its roadworthy come check out the 110's.

Boy do I have a deal for you !

Diesel Doug
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  #14  
Old February 4th, 2008, 07:28 PM
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Good to hear you have her running!
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  #15  
Old February 5th, 2008, 09:04 AM
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I don't care who you are, this is funny:

I drove it 4 miles to the station for an inspection... I got pulled over within 0.2 miles of the station for expired tags (they expired April last year). I've put 3000 miles on the truck with these expired tags, no tags, and... "borrowed" tags and never got pulled over until today - THE DAY I was taking it for an inspeciton.

MD State Trooper laughed as hard as I did at the story (he got a good synopsis) and wrote a warning - I didn't even have the registation or current insurance... he just took the old insurance card and my license and said "Screw it, that's fine LOL"

PERFECT! I suggested to the station that should anything untoward happen to Humpty Dumpty today (like theft, fire, severe impact crash on Route 50...), it would be a shame, but no trouble. :D
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  #16  
Old February 5th, 2008, 09:53 AM
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Man you guys have nice cops over in MD. You'd be writing that message from your cell phone from the back of a cruiser if you disclosed that in VA!
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  #17  
Old February 5th, 2008, 04:13 PM
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the cool part is that he Finally Passed Md inspection- after nearly a year
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  #18  
Old February 5th, 2008, 04:50 PM
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Congrats!
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*not legal advice*
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  #19  
Old February 5th, 2008, 05:03 PM
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Charles Galpin
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No excuse not to make the next NOVA HH!
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  #20  
Old February 5th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Emerson00
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Thanks fellas. It's been an education - an expensive one, but a real education for me. I'll be having a coupla celebratory beers tonight for damn sure.

This truck's never failed to break something after I fix something, so I'm unfortunately waiting for the next 3 things to fail (make up for the starter motor, alignment, and inspection)... Regardless, I'm excited to get permanent stickers tomorrow for the tags.
Re: NOVAHH... depending on when and where - this was one [unintended] project amongst many. Happy Hour sounds like fun, though.
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