Seems slower than I expected... - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old May 2nd, 2015, 11:05 PM
Broncoduecer's Avatar
Broncoduecer
Status: Offline
peter
D90
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NV
Posts: 1,433
Seems slower than I expected...

Now that I have gotten the defender on the road again after the tdi swap it seems slower than it should. Now I know the 300tdi is no powerhouse, but I think it should go better than it does.

Background: 255/85/r16 bfg km2 tire, 3.54 diff gears, 1.4 ratio tcase, zf auto (Ashcroft rebuilt), 15psi boost at intake manifold max under load, rebuilt engine and injection pump. 5500 ft elevation. Running 12v lift pump also. All new filters. No smoke visible during driving. No mods to IP done.

Going up the passes around town here I'm can get 40-45 uphill, second gear 3100 rpm and 1050f egt, lug it in third and egts go way up. On the flats I can get to 60 but it's heavy in the throttle and egts of 1050-1100. Throw any kind of grade on it and it's like 50 is where it tops out at. More room in the throttle but egts start to climb. It really loves putting along at 45 around town.

My other thought is that the new coils I put on really made it handle poorly. So that's another issue, but is that stressing the driveshafts or something causing resistance? It also doesn't make it that fun to go over 50.

Is there something I should check out? It seems like I should have some more power. Suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
Pete
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old May 2nd, 2015, 11:12 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,230
Registry
Double check timing. If you can use a dial gauge on the pump.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old May 2nd, 2015, 11:37 PM
Mybluett's Avatar
Mybluett
Status: Offline
Defenders Northwest
110SW
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 2,007
Registry
I see a few things in your description that are power robbing (and thank you for listing out all the details without being asked, really great post!)

1 - 5500ft elevation - not massive, but not sea-level either (where was the pump tuned? at elevation?)
2 - Auto transmission (every auto Tdi Defender I've driven is down on power compared to the manual with all other things being equal)
3 - rebuilt engine - how long ago? Is it broken in yet? How is the pressure in each cylinder? Blow-by?
4 - when was the last oil change? What condition is the oil?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old May 2nd, 2015, 11:55 PM
Broncoduecer's Avatar
Broncoduecer
Status: Offline
peter
D90
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NV
Posts: 1,433
I don't have a dial gauge, but I've been meaning to get one anyways. Looks like some good YouTube vids on timing for the pump.

Hey thanks! I've read a ton of posts so I thought I should put the facts out there first. Pump and engine were rebuilt at essentially sea level. I have like 50 miles on it I bet. I haven't done a compressions test. Oil was changed after the first 10 miles. So not much on it yet.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:00 AM
tpond
Status: Offline
Toby Pond
110
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Portland, Or, USA
Posts: 118
When the EGTs go "way up" what do they level out to?

Sounds like proper timing and a pump tuning will get you where you need to be.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 06:33 AM
diesel_jim's Avatar
diesel_jim
Status: Offline
Jamie Austin
1992 110 Td5 CSW & 1989 MB G-Wagen
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Posts: 1,448
And a little tweek on the fuelling on the pump too; there's a fine line between good extra power and lots of black smoke, but most shops seem to tune the pumps conservatively, so a little more doesn't hurt. It really makes a difference, especially with an auto.

Friend of mine had an auto 90 300Tdi, and it was gutless until he tweeked it.

Bear in mind the 255's will also rob some speed too. they're a tall tyre (33" IIRC) with standard power. I did have these on my old 90, but was a Td5 and pushing 170bhp (with the same gearing as you, but R380 manual) which pulled them ok, but as I say, with standard power (111bhp) they rob it a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 10:04 AM
jrose609's Avatar
jrose609
Status: Offline
Jason Rose
1983 110 County 200tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 648
Registry
Aside from the pump and fueling, the auto and the tires are probably the biggest culprits. My 300tdi Disco was an auto, and it did not like 33" tires and would struggle just like you're saying. With 31's the drive was much better.

I had a 300tdi LWB RRC with stock tires, and it drove great and handled the passes with little effort even with the automatic.

My 200tdi 110 is a 5-speed, and it drives great.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 10:14 AM
Ren Ching's Avatar
Ren Ching
Status: Offline
Skinny Pete
'84 90 "Yamelo"/'88 RRC "Chewbacca"
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Downtown
Posts: 4,696
Registry
What do you have for exhaust?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Present:
1960 SII 109"- "Red Square"
1984 90 Tdi- "Yamelo"
1988 RRC- "Chewbacca"
1987 RRC- "Chewy 2"
2008 RRS SC- "The Supersofa"

Past:
1959 SII 88"- "The Little Green Beastie" last seen in NY
1972 SIII 88"- "GreenHELL" now in NC
1988 90 "Eric the Half a Bee" half a truck, sold for parts
1991 RRC- never got a name- long since recycled
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 10:18 AM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,230
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncoduecer View Post
On the flats I can get to 60 but it's heavy in the throttle and egts of 1050-1100.
I live at altitude and have both 32s and 34s, neither should not matter much. 60 is really slow, if that is all you can do. You should be able to make 90 with everything right (on the flats with no head wind). 75 should be fairly easy. 1100 F is quite cold, so if you are backing off then, you should not be. 1300 should be when you start to back off.

Any smoke on overrun?

Any large, extra wind dragging features like a roof rack?
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 10:43 AM
Broncoduecer's Avatar
Broncoduecer
Status: Offline
peter
D90
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NV
Posts: 1,433
Thanks for all the thoughts guys.
By way up I was meaning 1250, they seemed to level out there.
Exhaust is the decat pipe, 2.5in pipe all the way and a flowmaster muffler. I don't notice any power difference without or with a muffler. When I had just the decat pipe it still had the same low power issue, but possibly this is holding more egts in.

No smoke on overrun. The only smoke I ever get is a tiny bit a startup but it's like a puff and gone.
As for extras I have the rockware stuff; front and rear bumper, winch, spare carrier w/jerry can carrier (cans empty) and sliders. I'm just running a surrey top right now. Nothing else bolted on.

It crossed my mind to go back to factory height coils and some smaller tires. At least on the coil side of things I wouldn't need to change all that stuff to get them to work.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 10:54 AM
Nomar's Avatar
Nomar
Status: Offline
Jeff B
RR HNTR,RR LWB Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Central,Virginia
Posts: 4,290
Registry
Peter, as you might remember, I just finished my 300/auto conversion last fall.
I will say the ZF must rob some of the small amount of power available.

While I dont have the elevation that you have, I have routinely taken my truck up my local mountains.
Rockfish Gap/I-64 is a long interstate climb that kills the 300Tdi by the time I reach the top.
I have to nurse it along and at the end the EGTs are hovering @1200-1300 and that's just to maintain 55mph in the right lane.
Rolling on stock diff ratios and 265/75s.

.
__________________


Real Rovers have round headlights!
Rent my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!
Just a few miles from 4x4 access!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:34 PM
spaeth's Avatar
spaeth
Status: Offline
Craig Spaeth
93 RRC LWB 300TDI
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: White Salmon, WA USA
Posts: 93
I have Jasons old LWB RRC with the 300 TDI in it and automatic. When I went to pick it up it was a real dog. I found that the vacuum line running from by the turbo over to the injection pump was broken off. This line increases the fuel with boost. If that has a small leak it can really affect power as well. I can't imagine running much more than a 31" tire if you are driving mountain passes at all. Most passes I am 50mph on the steeper sections and the stretch of I70 from Moab over to 15 going north I was dropping down into the 40's on the really steep sections.

I have tuned my pump settings but it is hard to make much of an adjustment without really affecting your egt. I did quite a bit of reading and settled on 1200 as a max line for the egt. If it can comfortably go to 1300 it would help a lot as I am backing off from temp way before running out of power.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:50 PM
Broncoduecer's Avatar
Broncoduecer
Status: Offline
peter
D90
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NV
Posts: 1,433
For setting the TDC on an auto do you use the drain plug hole or the inspection cover? I've been searching on this and I seem to get conflicting reports. Got my dial gauge ordered and on the way.

I did check the boost line (thanks Viton!) as one of the first steps and that holds pressure fine.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old May 3rd, 2015, 03:00 PM
NPT90's Avatar
NPT90
Status: Offline
JT
D90 óriginalé
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: DC/MD
Posts: 2,772
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
I live at altitude and have both 32s and 34s, neither should not matter much. 60 is really slow, if that is all you can do. You should be able to make 90 with everything right (on the flats with no head wind). 75 should be fairly easy. 1100 F is quite cold, so if you are backing off then, you should not be. 1300 should be when you start to back off. Any smoke on overrun? Any large, extra wind dragging features like a roof rack?
Yeah it seems unusual. My 300 tdi is pulling 75 mph on 34s. I mean uphill highway sometimes I drop it down to 4th but generally 75 should be attainable in a 90
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old May 6th, 2015, 10:59 PM
Broncoduecer's Avatar
Broncoduecer
Status: Offline
peter
D90
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NV
Posts: 1,433
Thinking out loud here; I've been watching IP tuning videos on YouTube and they were showing some videos of the non-egr and the electronic egr pumps. 1.54 and 1.4 mm respectively. I noticed when I got my engine it had the throttle sensor on the IP. I took it off not thinking about it.

Is potentially part of my issue having an egr style pump without an egr system? Do I just need to do some pump tuning? Dial indicator and timing pins on their way.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old May 7th, 2015, 09:23 AM
Top Secret 90's Avatar
Top Secret 90
Status: Offline
Ryan
1997 Defender 90 County
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Trinidad & Tobago
Posts: 6
Hey There im new to you guys, but i had a similar problem at first , when i bought my 90 (300TDi ) i removed the catalytic converter on the muffler , and blanked off my EGR , now it totally different with power ... i dont know if your law allow that .... but it made a difference ,
__________________
Just Another day in Paradise ...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old June 4th, 2015, 11:40 PM
Broncoduecer's Avatar
Broncoduecer
Status: Offline
peter
D90
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NV
Posts: 1,433
So I finally got a chance to play around with things tonight. So opened up the flywheel access port and I was able to lock the flywheel at TDC. Funny there are all these holes on the flywheel that make you think you are getting close to THE hole, but in fact the one is the one nearest the inside rim of the flywheel. And it kind of has a side missing from it, like it's literally on the inside diameter of the flywheel.m
So I found that, and magically the timing pin fell into the injection pump slot after I removed the timing case cover and got access to it.
Next I removed that plate off the sprocket so I could freely turn the nut/injection pump shaft.
Next I took off the injector pipes and made room for the dial gauge. The dial gauge didn't seem to work as seemslessly as the videos on YouTube, but I thought I found the zero and then proceeded to measure the lift. Well it seemed to love the 1.4 but it also seemed that this was nearly the extent which I could get (1.44) due to the holes. I couldn't seem to get to the 1.54 because, what I assume is the sprocket plate doesn't have holes with enough travel to get there.

So simple question: should you be able to get to 1.54-1.60 mm of lift at TDC with an EGR pump?
Just thinking out loud that timing looks to be correct for the pump that it is (egr), but I want to run it like an non-egr pump. Something somewhere has to make the timing pin fit at 1.4 or 1.54 for each pump respectively. So should I be able to advance the egr pump to non-egr timing? Or does each pump have its own special flywheel hole spacing on its shaft that mounts to the sprocket?
It seems like I confirmed the pump is timed correctly for what it is, but I can't seem to get it to what I want for my application.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Pete
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old June 9th, 2015, 11:47 PM
Broncoduecer's Avatar
Broncoduecer
Status: Offline
peter
D90
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NV
Posts: 1,433
Anyone know what size the copper washer is on the back bolt of the injection pump? Or a part number? I should have measured it but I didn't.

I rechecked everything again tonight and same issue. Pump is timed correctly at 1.4mm of lift but that is the extent of the rotation I can get because it limits out on the travel of the timing belt sprocket holes. Maybe moving the sprocket ahead a tooth would give me the play I need?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old June 10th, 2015, 12:00 AM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,230
Registry
Yah. Sounds like you are out a tooth.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old June 10th, 2015, 08:54 AM
ezzzzzzz
Status: Offline
Mark Garrenton
Too many here or gone to list here
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Portsmouth Virginia
Posts: 758
It's a LR 4 cylinder turbo diesel... that's the problem. You could have had a V8. Queuing Robert Davis, is there a Robert Davis in the building?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
R380 : how much 2nd gear crunch can be expected? 84ninety Defender Technical Discussions 20 October 15th, 2013 10:57 AM
90 Load Space Mats NOS expected on Friday SafariHP The Vendors Loft 11 January 26th, 2011 09:43 PM
Exhaust - louder than stock, quieter than Borla? don Defender Technical Discussions 14 April 4th, 2008 01:36 PM
Tata/LR/Jag announcement expected 3/26 Kev Baldwin Misc. Chit-Chat 0 March 25th, 2008 07:53 PM
seems like a good deal on ebay.. Campbell Misc. Chit-Chat 5 December 13th, 2004 04:55 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:51 PM.


Copyright