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  #21  
Old June 30th, 2016, 01:47 PM
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Not with a full independent appraisal with pictures and comps prior to underwriting the policy, and an agreed value policy.
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  #22  
Old June 30th, 2016, 02:09 PM
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Insuring kit cars isn't easy.
Even though I owned a series Liberty Mutual refused to insure it after I updated it with my D1 drivetrain new chassis etc. to them it was a kit car. Despite genuine vin number etc.
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  #23  
Old July 4th, 2016, 09:30 AM
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Scratch built with state assigned VIN?

I bought the Gold Coast defender 110 and I am glad I did. What made it easier for me was that I live in NE and I know the person who built it up. You can call it a kit car but it was made with all Land Rover, OEM, or upgraded aftermarket parts (4 wheel disc brakes, 2" lift with new OME suspension). It has a rust free galvanized frame, a well running 200 tdi motor, and updated axles with alloy wheels. The interior and sound insulation is lacking and it could use a better paint job, but those are things I can fix along the way.

I looked at this and thought, why would I spend the same amount of money to risk importing a defender that is all rusted out with its old 2.5 diesel engine, only to spend $100k plus to have someone take it apart over a year, throw away most of it and put together something with all the same parts that would go on this car only to show off the Land Rover vin. I'm nearly there with this car with money in the bank. I'm not saying it's ECR quality but it's a good daily driver.

No, it won't have the same resale value. Will it depreciate as much as other cars? I doubt it. But we don't buy these cars to resell them. I also wonder how long the value of defenders will stay up with newer defenders being imported every year past their 25 year restriction. Registering it at the DMV was no problem. The title says Assembled Land Rover Defender 110. My safeco insurance sent me proof of insurance within an hour.

I plan on having many adventures with it. Might as well start now. "One life. Live it."

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  #24  
Old July 5th, 2016, 12:50 PM
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I was asked by a fellow member about giving my own response in regard to this discussion thread. While the construction of "kit cars","replica cars", and "homebuilt vehicles" are predominantly governed by individual state laws, they do fall within the purview of various federal statutes and regulations. As an example, I would direct anyone considering such a project to pay particular attention to the policies promulgated by the EPA under the Clean Air Act (see link with content copied below). Again, this represents just one (1) legal aspect to bear in mind when giving consideration to the topic of kit cars.

https://www.epa.gov/importing-vehicl...kit-car-policy

EPA Kit Car Policy

July 8, 1994 -
Previous versions are obsolete

The following represents a clarification of EPA's policy concerning the regulation of imported and domestically produced kit cars and kit car packages. Kit vehicles are understood by EPA to typically involve new bodies, used drivetrains and new or used chassis. Used components may or may not be refurbished. This policy applies to kits or assembled kit cars only. This policy does not apply to regular production vehicles offered for importation into or produced in the United States.

1. Fully-assembled kit cars are "motor vehicles" under the Clean Air Act. Complete kit car packages are also "motor vehicles" under the Clean Air Act. These are packages which contain all of the major components needed for assembly (i.e., body, chassis, engine and transmission). As "motor vehicles" they are subject to all applicable emission regulations. If an assembled kit car or complete kit car package is offered for importation and the kit is not covered by an EPA certificate of conformity issued to an original equipment manufacturer, an EPA Form No. 3520-1 must be filed at the port of entry and the vehicle must be imported by an Independent Commercial Importer (ICI) eligible to import such vehicles or kits. The ICI then must ensure that the vehicle or kit complies with all applicable emission requirements.

2. An assembled kit car or complete kit car package which meets the following guidelines will be considered to be a rebuilt vehicle of a previously certified configuration and will be considered to be covered by that configuration's original EPA certificate of conformity.
- The components of the drivetrain (engine, transmission, differential) must be exclusively or substantially used and/or rebuilt. Regardless of the combination of new and used components, the engine must be used or used and rebuilt. The engine block and cylinder head(s) must be used, other components of the engine may be new. "Used" means the component has been in a vehicle that has been titled to an ultimate purchaser. A rebuilt component is defined as a used component which has been refurbished with new or other used parts.
- All emission-related components and settings must conform in all material respects to those of one previously certified configuration. Therefore, all part numbers for the emission-related components of a fully assembled kit vehicle or complete kit car package must match or be traceable to the numbers specified in the application for certification of a previously certified configuration.
- Consistent with EPA Advisory Circular (AC) 64, which deals with modifications performed before sale to the ultimate purchaser, the vehicle weight of the kit configuration can be no more than 500 pounds greater than the weight of the originally certified configuration.
- All catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, and charcoal canisters must be new, original equipment parts.
- Kit vehicles must: (1) have the same transmission configuration (i.e., manual, automatic, semi-automatic, number of forward gears, and shift calibration) as the originally certified configuration; and (2) consistent with AC 17F, have an N/V ratio (speed of vehicle in miles per hour/speed of engine in revolutions per minute) which matches the N/V ratio of the originally certified configuration within three (3) percent in every gear.*
(*The Agency would consider minor variations to these limitations upon an appropriate demonstration that the altered configuration will meet Federal emission requirements.)
- Each vehicle and its accompanying documentation must be clearly labeled as to the make, model year, engine family, subfamily, and tune-up specifications represented by the originally certified vehicle.
- If the originally certified configuration required unleaded fuel, then the vehicles must have fuel filler neck restrictors and unleaded fuel labels which meet the requirements of 40 CFR 80.24.

3. The production, sale and importation of automotive bodies alone (i.e., no chassis, engine or transmission) are not regulated by EPA since such units are not considered "motor vehicles" under the Clean Air Act. EPA form 3520-1 is not required for imported automotive bodies. A motor vehicle from which the engine has been removed is still a motor vehicle and is not considered a body.

4. The production, sale and importation of vehicle parts (engines, transmissions, chassis, vehicle bodies, etc.) are not regulated by EPA because parts are not considered motor vehicles under the Clean Air Act. However if the parts constitute a disassembled vehicle or an approximate disassembled vehicle, the combination is considered a motor vehicle under the Clean Air Act. Any attempt to use this policy to circumvent the Clean Air Act or the Imports regulations will be considered a violation of the Clean Air Act and will be strictly enforced. An example of such circumvention is:
- A kit car maker who also provides the engine and transmission before or after production/importation of the body/chassis.

5. "Motor vehicles" must comply with the Clean Air Act and may not be disassembled nor purchased in a disassembled form for the purposes of evading the Clean Air Act or the Imports regulations. In these situations the kit car body/chassis combination must be certified by the manufacturer, must be in a configuration which was previously certified by EPA subject to the guidelines discussed at "2" above or, in the case of an importation, an EPA form 3520-1 must be filed at the port of entry and the vehicle imported by an eligible ICI who must ensure that the kit car body/chassis complies with all applicable emission requirements. At the present time, there are no ICIs eligible to import kit cars.

6. Except with regard to kit vehicles meeting the guidelines at "2" above; an individual or firm that assembles kits for hire or resale, that produces assembled kit cars for resale or that produces complete kit car packages for resale will be considered to be a manufacturer of new motor vehicles under the Clean Air Act. Such manufacturers and their vehicles are subject to all applicable regulations under the Act including civil penalties of up to $25,000 per vehicle for each new motor vehicle distributed in commerce, sold, offered for sale, or introduced, or delivered for introduction, into commerce, unless such vehicle is covered by a certificate of conformity issued by EPA.

KIT CAR POLICY SUPPLEMENT

The supplement contains definitions from the Clean Air Act and justification used to derive the position of the Kit car Policy.

Section 216 (1) defines a "manufacturer" as "any person engaged in the manufacturing or assembling of new motor vehicles or new motor vehicle engines, or importing such vehicle or engines for resale."

Section 216 (2) defines a "motor vehicle" as "any self-propelled vehicle designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway."

Section 216 (3) defines a "new motor vehicle" as "a motor vehicle the equitable or legal title to which has never been transferred to the ultimate purchaser."

Section 216 (5) defines a "ultimate purchaser" as "the first person who in good faith purchases such new motor vehicle or new engine for purposes other than resale".

Section 203(a)(1) prohibits "in the case of a manufacturer of new motor vehicles...the sale, or offering for sale, or the introduction, into commerce...any new motor vehicle...unless such vehicle.is covered by a certificate of conformity."

Section 205 states "any person who violates Section 203(a)(1)...shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000...Any such violation...shall constitute a separate offense."
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  #25  
Old July 5th, 2016, 03:18 PM
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I've been asking this question for years. The following situation happens quite frequently: Someone brings in a ROW truck and does a "restoration" to include a new galv chassis, LS/6L80 swap, Puma doors/bonnet, new interior, LHD swap with a TD5 or Puma dash, smooth roof, or beach runner type conversion, etc. Couple weeks later it's on eBay or the Dupont Registry for $80k+. That's a blatant VIN swap in my opinion. Keeping a VIN plate, axles, maybe the tcase, maybe the tub/front wings, I just don't see how that possibly constitutes a restoration only. I'd argue this is nearly the same as someone buying a Puma overseas, shipping it here in pieces, then assembling it with a complete NAS bulkhead and dash with VIN. Or even better, buying a V5 and VIN tag overseas and riveting them onto a truck just built from scratch here. The latter scenario was achieved before DMVs required proof of importation/Customs clearance release.

If I go through the trouble of doing all that ^ specifically for the purpose of resale, why wouldn't someone just do the ASPT (built from parts) title and save themselves time/money/hassle of importation? In doing so with the "restoration" or the scratch build, you've got two of the exact same truck or collection of parts. Why does a piece of paper saying 2016 ASPT versus 1988 LNDR TRK (FL example) denote a variation of $5-10k in value? I would prefer to assemble a brand new truck and be able to honestly say that it is neither VIN swapped nor subject to seizure. After the Motorex seizures of the Skylines, there was a person that ordered every single part individually from Nissan and assembled an R34 Skyline that is 100% legal in the US due to an assembled from parts title. Cost him something like $115k, but it was done. Humorously, the R34s that are being stored now for future importation are expected to sell for more than that.

I've done the research with the local DMV and you have to prove that you assembled the vehicle, supply all sorts of photos along with receipts for parts purchased, and then it has to be inspected for function/safety before they issue a VIN for it. They also said the parts used to assemble the vehicle must come from at least 3 different sources or vehicles. Once I have a FL title for it, I can sell it to whoever wants to purchase it and they can transfer the title just like any other vehicle. If I sell it in FL, the vehicle does not have to be taken to the DMV ever again. If I sell it to any other state, that person has to supply their DMV with my title and a bill of sale. They also have to do a VIN verification by either taking the vehicle to the DMV or downloading the form online and having any peace officer verify the VIN is the same on the title/vehicle. This is the same process I've had to follow buying a USDM Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 from Georgia, so it's not really anything new. As far as the emissions portion of it, I've never had to directly deal with it so I can't really say much, but that's for registration which comes after titling anyway.
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  #26  
Old July 5th, 2016, 04:47 PM
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building from parts = new vehicle = must comply with DOT and EPA requirements for year of build. So what you describe doesn't really work on a federal level. How is a restoration equivalent to a VIN swap? Of course we are somewhat splitting hairs here when it comes to Defenders due to their modular nature. But a VIN swap is just that. Anything else is, well, something else.

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Originally Posted by Scottyoh View Post
I've been asking this question for years. The following situation happens quite frequently: Someone brings in a ROW truck and does a "restoration" to include a new galv chassis, LS/6L80 swap, Puma doors/bonnet, new interior, LHD swap with a TD5 or Puma dash, smooth roof, or beach runner type conversion, etc. Couple weeks later it's on eBay or the Dupont Registry for $80k+. That's a blatant VIN swap in my opinion. Keeping a VIN plate, axles, maybe the tcase, maybe the tub/front wings, I just don't see how that possibly constitutes a restoration only. I'd argue this is nearly the same as someone buying a Puma overseas, shipping it here in pieces, then assembling it with a complete NAS bulkhead and dash with VIN. Or even better, buying a V5 and VIN tag overseas and riveting them onto a truck just built from scratch here. The latter scenario was achieved before DMVs required proof of importation/Customs clearance release.

If I go through the trouble of doing all that ^ specifically for the purpose of resale, why wouldn't someone just do the ASPT (built from parts) title and save themselves time/money/hassle of importation? In doing so with the "restoration" or the scratch build, you've got two of the exact same truck or collection of parts. Why does a piece of paper saying 2016 ASPT versus 1988 LNDR TRK (FL example) denote a variation of $5-10k in value? I would prefer to assemble a brand new truck and be able to honestly say that it is neither VIN swapped nor subject to seizure. After the Motorex seizures of the Skylines, there was a person that ordered every single part individually from Nissan and assembled an R34 Skyline that is 100% legal in the US due to an assembled from parts title. Cost him something like $115k, but it was done. Humorously, the R34s that are being stored now for future importation are expected to sell for more than that.

I've done the research with the local DMV and you have to prove that you assembled the vehicle, supply all sorts of photos along with receipts for parts purchased, and then it has to be inspected for function/safety before they issue a VIN for it. They also said the parts used to assemble the vehicle must come from at least 3 different sources or vehicles. Once I have a FL title for it, I can sell it to whoever wants to purchase it and they can transfer the title just like any other vehicle. If I sell it in FL, the vehicle does not have to be taken to the DMV ever again. If I sell it to any other state, that person has to supply their DMV with my title and a bill of sale. They also have to do a VIN verification by either taking the vehicle to the DMV or downloading the form online and having any peace officer verify the VIN is the same on the title/vehicle. This is the same process I've had to follow buying a USDM Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 from Georgia, so it's not really anything new. As far as the emissions portion of it, I've never had to directly deal with it so I can't really say much, but that's for registration which comes after titling anyway.
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Past:
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  #27  
Old July 5th, 2016, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
building from parts = new vehicle = must comply with DOT and EPA requirements for year of build. So what you describe doesn't really work on a federal level. How is a restoration equivalent to a VIN swap? Of course we are somewhat splitting hairs here when it comes to Defenders due to their modular nature. But a VIN swap is just that. Anything else is, well, something else.
That may be true in other states and I can only go by what the FL DMV here told me. I know FL has 3 specifically different definitions for this general area: ASPT, Replica, and Kit Car. Replicas require a manufacturers license and kit cars require a certificate of origin. 2016 DOT and EPA requirements would mean they would need air bags, OBD ports, safety door bars, and an innumerable amount of other things. That is simply not the case with an ASPT title here. They would never allow dune buggys, Cobras, Lotus roadsters, or the like to be built/titled/registered/driven in public if that were the case. That's why I was saying once the title is issued it can be freely transferred to other states without physical inspection.

http://www3.flhsmv.gov/dmv/Proc/TL/TL-06.PDF

I think I was pretty specific in the type of restoration I was referring to and what parts might be kept. I'd be wrong to say all restorations are equivalent to VIN swapping. But I also said "nearly the same" with regards to the relation. While I don't disagree there are a few questionable areas, I try to be as honest with things as I can be. Right and wrong are pretty black and white to me. Truly spoken, "Anything else is, well, something else."
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  #28  
Old July 5th, 2016, 05:48 PM
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To me, "Restoration" is an act. A "Kit Car" is one potential outcome of the act of "Restoration". There are other potential outcomes of a "Restoration"

So therefore to compare "Kit Car" to "Restoration" doesn't really make sense to me. One must compare "Kit Car" to other possible outcomes of "Restorations".



AFAIK "VIN Swap" is an act, not an outcome. Therefore, "Restoration" and "VIN Swap" are two totally distinct activities.
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  #29  
Old July 5th, 2016, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
To me, "Restoration" is an act. A "Kit Car" is one potential outcome of the act of "Restoration". There are other potential outcomes of a "Restoration"

So therefore to compare "Kit Car" to "Restoration" doesn't really make sense to me. One must compare "Kit Car" to other possible outcomes of "Restorations".



AFAIK "VIN Swap" is an act, not an outcome. Therefore, "Restoration" and "VIN Swap" are two totally distinct activities.
You lost me there with the nouns and the adjectives.
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  #30  
Old July 5th, 2016, 10:54 PM
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Well, I don't want to get into splitting hairs. I think I hear what you are saying as far as the "right and wrong" assessment. My point was that states may allow the builds you describe but FWIW they are still no good in the eyes of the feds. Though I'm not sure how much they can or are willing to do about it for one off, owner-built vehicles. For custom builds, scratch-built and sold by shops, that may be a different story and I think one could be subject to penalties if the feds wanted to get up in your grill about it.

cheers,



Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottyoh View Post
That may be true in other states and I can only go by what the FL DMV here told me. I know FL has 3 specifically different definitions for this general area: ASPT, Replica, and Kit Car. Replicas require a manufacturers license and kit cars require a certificate of origin. 2016 DOT and EPA requirements would mean they would need air bags, OBD ports, safety door bars, and an innumerable amount of other things. That is simply not the case with an ASPT title here. They would never allow dune buggys, Cobras, Lotus roadsters, or the like to be built/titled/registered/driven in public if that were the case. That's why I was saying once the title is issued it can be freely transferred to other states without physical inspection.

http://www3.flhsmv.gov/dmv/Proc/TL/TL-06.PDF

I think I was pretty specific in the type of restoration I was referring to and what parts might be kept. I'd be wrong to say all restorations are equivalent to VIN swapping. But I also said "nearly the same" with regards to the relation. While I don't disagree there are a few questionable areas, I try to be as honest with things as I can be. Right and wrong are pretty black and white to me. Truly spoken, "Anything else is, well, something else."
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Present:
1960 SII 109"- "Red Square"
1984 90 Tdi- "Yamelo"
1988 RRC- "Chewbacca"
1987 RRC- "Chewy 2"
2008 RRS SC- "The Supersofa"

Past:
1959 SII 88"- "The Little Green Beastie" last seen in NY
1972 SIII 88"- "GreenHELL" now in NC
1988 90 "Eric the Half a Bee" half a truck, sold for parts
1991 RRC- never got a name- long since recycled
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  #31  
Old July 6th, 2016, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottyoh View Post

You lost me there with the nouns and the adjectives.
sorry scott.

Basically, a "kit car" is a legal attribution. It's not up to our opinions to define what a "kit car" is. The state does.

Now the state could be wrong, but that's a different issue
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  #32  
Old July 6th, 2016, 11:25 AM
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sorry scott. Basically, a "kit car" is a legal attribution. It's not up to our opinions to define what a "kit car" is. The state does. Now the state could be wrong, but that's a different issue
My series rebuilt with my D1 was defined as a kit car by Liberty Mutual.
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Old July 6th, 2016, 12:06 PM
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Old July 6th, 2016, 12:40 PM
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  #35  
Old July 6th, 2016, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching View Post
My point was that states may allow the builds you describe but FWIW they are still no good in the eyes of the feds. Though I'm not sure how much they can or are willing to do about it for one off, owner-built vehicles. For custom builds, scratch-built and sold by shops, that may be a different story and I think one could be subject to penalties if the feds wanted to get up in your grill about it.

Similar situation with MJ in Colorado. There are probably a few federal judges and USFS/NPS rangers that care it is illegal under federal law but that's about it.
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