Running Rich.. white smoke - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old May 10th, 2014, 11:53 AM
sflash868's Avatar
sflash868
Status: Offline
Stephan Laputka
1995 D-90 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 972
Running Rich.. white smoke

Hey All,
Working on my brother stock 94 90. Had it at Robinson service in Mass. before driving it cross country and they said the ECU was throwing bad voltage. Long story short. Car is stumbling after driving for a while. Fifth gear throttle, highway speed causes it the fastest. Also does it after driving around town for 30 mins. Light white smoke from the exhaust. smells rich. I've replaced the ECU and both 02 sensors. In my searches, i've read that the ECU sometime needs time to "learn" and the issue might go away but I wanted to post and see what else I should be checking. Not sure what else would cause it to run rich.. MAF? Before switching the ECU it was throwing the check engine light and the code for the 02 sensors whenever it stumbled. Now it stumbles and no check engine light.

Any ideas on what I should check? Thanks
__________________
Land Rovers are by far the best looking 4x4 on the back of a flatbed...
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old May 10th, 2014, 12:13 PM
Grover's Avatar
Grover
Status: Offline
Mike
Birmabright Bread Box/Swagger Wagon
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,857
Registry
Have you tried cleaning the MAF?
__________________
LR3 sidesteps with rocker panels for sale $400


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old May 10th, 2014, 02:11 PM
sloanfiske's Avatar
sloanfiske
Status: Offline
Anthony Nelson
97 D90 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 435
Registry
check the MAF connection, the dizzy/wires/plugs connections, and clean the IAC.

then have a look at the voltage across the ignition amp. maybe just replace.

my classic had the same symptoms time and again.

replaced and relocated the Ignition Amp, replaced the IAC, put on OEM Cap/Rotor/Wires, reset the base idle and it ran better than ever.

i'll never go any other way than OEM on this kind of stuff on a Dizzy based Rover ever again.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old May 10th, 2014, 03:44 PM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
I f'in love crap that garages say like ECU Is throwing a bad voltage ... It's absolutely meaningless mumbo jumbo.

The first cause of stumbling would be poor fuel air mix. Check all the hoses for leaks. That's the most common and easily fixed issues. Check the bottom of the plenum hose. It may look ok on top but can rot through underneath.

Check the engine temp sensor. In the picture.

If it's bad it will cause boot running when warm as the ECU will over fuel to try and warm the engine up.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-2983776324.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	457.2 KB
ID:	94634  
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old May 10th, 2014, 05:30 PM
sloanfiske's Avatar
sloanfiske
Status: Offline
Anthony Nelson
97 D90 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 435
Registry
I second all this stuff too.

Esp the Plenum to IAC hose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
I f'in love crap that garages say like ECU Is throwing a bad voltage ... It's absolutely meaningless mumbo jumbo.

The first cause of stumbling would be poor fuel air mix. Check all the hoses for leaks. That's the most common and easily fixed issues. Check the bottom of the plenum hose. It may look ok on top but can rot through underneath.

Check the engine temp sensor. In the picture.

If it's bad it will cause boot running when warm as the ECU will over fuel to try and warm the engine up.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old May 11th, 2014, 08:35 AM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,527
Registry
Would this sensor not cause the temp gauge to read erratically? I've replaced most of the fuel system on my classic, still a fuel smell in the oil and fuel consumption through the roof.
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old May 11th, 2014, 10:37 AM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by rover4x4 View Post
Would this sensor not cause the temp gauge to read erratically? I've replaced most of the fuel system on my classic, still a fuel smell in the oil and fuel consumption through the roof.
not at all the coolant temp sensor on the engine is totally different to the temp gauge sensor.
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old May 11th, 2014, 11:27 AM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,527
Registry
i just realized this after looking, it appears my sensor isnt bottomed out in the intake
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old May 16th, 2014, 02:45 PM
sflash868's Avatar
sflash868
Status: Offline
Stephan Laputka
1995 D-90 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 972
Sorry for the ignorance here but 2 questions:

1. what's the IAD? where is it located? When you say clean it, I'm assuming you mean the electrical connection?

2. How do i check the ignition amp? I have a volt meter but only have ever used it to find ground and 12v. I'm not very savvy beyond that.
__________________
Land Rovers are by far the best looking 4x4 on the back of a flatbed...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old May 16th, 2014, 03:11 PM
o2batsea's Avatar
o2batsea
Status: Offline
Bill Adams
66 109 sw 94 lwb
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: kensington md
Posts: 6,506
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflash868 View Post
Sorry for the ignorance here but 2 questions:

1. what's the IAD? where is it located? When you say clean it, I'm assuming you mean the electrical connection?

2. How do i check the ignition amp? I have a volt meter but only have ever used it to find ground and 12v. I'm not very savvy beyond that.
IAD is actually the three letter identifier for Dulles airport. IUD is an interuterine device for birth control. IAC is Idle Air Controller, in this case a stepper motor. It has nothing to do with white smoke or running rich, so you can prolly eliminate that as long as the engine is not dying on deceleration or at stop lights.
The ignition amp is a little electronic device that converts the very weak pulses from the optical pickup in the distributor into strong pulses the coil gets. It's either working or not, and when it's not it raises all sorts of hell. You should just replace it. It may be on the side of the distributor or remotely located near the coil. If it's the former, it means pulling the diz out to get to it. If the latter it's a simple thing to switch it out. My money is on this.
Another consideration is that your alternator may be going south. This will also cause all kinds of strange schmidt to happen.
O2 sensors will allow the engine to run rich if they aren't working, but not to the point that the engine will buck and stumble. Also they only work after the engine is warmed up.
Lastly, a 14CUX ecu is super stupid. It can't "learn". It has no control over anything but fuel. Doesn't do spark or timing or anything. Just tells all the left and then all the right injectors to open. Left Right Left Right, blah blah blah times a gazillion. It gets timed from the coil, so if the Ignition Amplifier is going poop, then the timing signal to the ECU is also going poop thus poor running.
__________________
Bill Adams

1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old May 16th, 2014, 03:35 PM
sflash868's Avatar
sflash868
Status: Offline
Stephan Laputka
1995 D-90 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
IAD is actually the three letter identifier for Dulles airport. IUD is an interuterine device for birth control. IAC is Idle Air Controller, in this case a stepper motor. It has nothing to do with white smoke or running rich, so you can prolly eliminate that as long as the engine is not dying on deceleration or at stop lights.
The ignition amp is a little electronic device that converts the very weak pulses from the optical pickup in the distributor into strong pulses the coil gets. It's either working or not, and when it's not it raises all sorts of hell. You should just replace it. It may be on the side of the distributor or remotely located near the coil. If it's the former, it means pulling the diz out to get to it. If the latter it's a simple thing to switch it out. My money is on this.
Another consideration is that your alternator may be going south. This will also cause all kinds of strange schmidt to happen.
O2 sensors will allow the engine to run rich if they aren't working, but not to the point that the engine will buck and stumble. Also they only work after the engine is warmed up.
Lastly, a 14CUX ecu is super stupid. It can't "learn". It has no control over anything but fuel. Doesn't do spark or timing or anything. Just tells all the left and then all the right injectors to open. Left Right Left Right, blah blah blah times a gazillion. It gets timed from the coil, so if the Ignition Amplifier is going poop, then the timing signal to the ECU is also going poop thus poor running.
You just reminded me to remind my wife to refill her birth control.. Love this forum.

Thanks for the info. I'm tearing into it this weekend!
__________________
Land Rovers are by far the best looking 4x4 on the back of a flatbed...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old May 16th, 2014, 04:53 PM
rdavisinva's Avatar
rdavisinva
Status: Offline
Robert Davis
N/A
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 6,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
I f'in love crap that garages say like ECU Is throwing a bad voltage ... It's absolutely meaningless mumbo jumbo.
Exactly!
People who write columns about politicians call it brabble.
According to Marian Webster it is of imitative origin which sounds like they imitate each others BS.
__________________
RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old May 16th, 2014, 05:37 PM
don's Avatar
don
Status: Offline
Don Bunnell
'86 110 3dr ST
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rumson, NJ
Posts: 4,272
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
IAD is actually the three letter identifier for Dulles airport. IUD is an interuterine device for birth control. IAC is Idle Air Controller, in this case a stepper motor. It has nothing to do with white smoke or running rich, so you can prolly eliminate that as long as the engine is not dying on deceleration or at stop lights. The ignition amp is a little electronic device that converts the very weak pulses from the optical pickup in the distributor into strong pulses the coil gets. It's either working or not, and when it's not it raises all sorts of hell. You should just replace it. It may be on the side of the distributor or remotely located near the coil. If it's the former, it means pulling the diz out to get to it. If the latter it's a simple thing to switch it out. My money is on this. Another consideration is that your alternator may be going south. This will also cause all kinds of strange schmidt to happen. O2 sensors will allow the engine to run rich if they aren't working, but not to the point that the engine will buck and stumble. Also they only work after the engine is warmed up. Lastly, a 14CUX ecu is super stupid. It can't "learn". It has no control over anything but fuel. Doesn't do spark or timing or anything. Just tells all the left and then all the right injectors to open. Left Right Left Right, blah blah blah times a gazillion. It gets timed from the coil, so if the Ignition Amplifier is going poop, then the timing signal to the ECU is also going poop thus poor running.
Great read. I don't have a gasser Defender anymore but like to read about them just in case a buddy has an issue.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old May 16th, 2014, 06:06 PM
1of40's Avatar
1of40
Status: Offline
1of40
NAS 97SW & 83 One Ten Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Potomac Falls & Wintergreen, Virginia
Posts: 6,086
Registry
X2. Bill you are one funny mf'er.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old May 16th, 2014, 07:15 PM
Jymmiejamz's Avatar
Jymmiejamz
Status: Offline
Jimmy
1995 D90 SW #365
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 3,468
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
I f'in love crap that garages say like ECU Is throwing a bad voltage ... It's absolutely meaningless mumbo jumbo.
While I am not agreeing with their diagnosis, it is probably a bad communication from the technician to the service advisor to the customer. As a side note, I have fixed a handful of 14CUX trucks that had various running issues by replacing the ECU.
__________________
Car Camping Collective founding member and Treasurer
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old May 16th, 2014, 09:02 PM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
Trying to apply some logic It stumbled before and after the ECU swap. So it's unlikely to be ecu specific. The previous one gave you more data ... It gave codes and is probably more likely matched to the engine. I'd out the old one back and think about the things that influence a warm running truck. The o2 sensors would be a good guess. Disconnect them and run without them for a while see if that works. While I agree that the ECU can go bad it sounds like in this situation it's not the case and given it works differently from the previous one I'd go back to the original and scratch ecu fault off the list.
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old May 16th, 2014, 09:44 PM
Jymmiejamz's Avatar
Jymmiejamz
Status: Offline
Jimmy
1995 D90 SW #365
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 3,468
Registry
My first guess would be to check the coolant temperature sensor and the wiring to it. I've seen a couple of them cause very intermittent issues. I owned a Disco that had intermittent issue with the temp sensor that would cause the truck to run like crap and/or stall. It took forever to diagnose since it never happened when I had T4 around (no Rovergauge) and only happened when hot. Eventually I got it to act up consistently and then the issue was obvious.
__________________
Car Camping Collective founding member and Treasurer
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old May 17th, 2014, 09:38 AM
leastonce's Avatar
leastonce
Status: Offline
Jason England
D-90 White 95 SW #65
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,078
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
My first guess would be to check the coolant temperature sensor and the wiring to it. I've seen a couple of them cause very intermittent issues. I owned a Disco that had intermittent issue with the temp sensor that would cause the truck to run like crap and/or stall. It took forever to diagnose since it never happened when I had T4 around (no Rovergauge) and only happened when hot. Eventually I got it to act up consistently and then the issue was obvious.
Yep totally agree with this. I posted a photo of the culprit in my first post in this thread ... Also check that the connector hasn't been swapped with the injector on cylinder 1. It is possible and would cause all manor of issues.
__________________
Quote:
Soapy water / KY jelly, etc. is is basically a must. Yes, good idea to remove trim panels - only takes 5 more minutes to do so.
Car Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Cat Camping Collective founding member and Chief Executive Officer
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old May 17th, 2014, 10:22 AM
rover4x4's Avatar
rover4x4
Status: Offline
Phillip
1995 SW #487/500
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Old North State
Posts: 7,527
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
My first guess would be to check the coolant temperature sensor and the wiring to it. I've seen a couple of them cause very intermittent issues. I owned a Disco that had intermittent issue with the temp sensor that would cause the truck to run like crap and/or stall. It took forever to diagnose since it never happened when I had T4 around (no Rovergauge) and only happened when hot. Eventually I got it to act up consistently and then the issue was obvious.
As in the ECU or the temp sensor? I've swapped ECU's MAF's etc with my D90 that runs extremely well. I have the sensor coming on a slow boat from Vt. I will report my findings, I've verified the injector harness is plugged into the correct injectors. Next stop will be the distributor.
__________________
Poor gas mileage gets you to the best places on earth
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old May 17th, 2014, 11:03 AM
Jymmiejamz's Avatar
Jymmiejamz
Status: Offline
Jimmy
1995 D90 SW #365
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 3,468
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Also check that the connector hasn't been swapped with the injector on cylinder 1. It is possible and would cause all manor of issues.
IIRC that will set a fault immediately.

------ Follow up post added May 17th, 2014 11:03 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rover4x4 View Post
As in the ECU or the temp sensor? I've swapped ECU's MAF's etc with my D90 that runs extremely well. I have the sensor coming on a slow boat from Vt. I will report my findings, I've verified the injector harness is plugged into the correct injectors. Next stop will be the distributor.
The temperature sensor for the fuel injection ECU, not the one for the temperature gauge.
__________________
Car Camping Collective founding member and Treasurer
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Running rich without throwing codes vesparover Defender Technical Discussions 8 January 20th, 2009 04:05 PM
running rich vesparover Defender Technical Discussions 2 February 6th, 2008 10:38 PM
Running Rich Please Help bstraw Defender Technical Discussions 23 October 26th, 2007 10:44 AM
Running rich and now not running Big D Defender Technical Discussions 3 May 9th, 2007 01:58 PM
removed my cats today(running rich?) mattdh Defender Technical Discussions 4 April 11th, 2006 05:22 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:58 PM.


Copyright