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  #1  
Old February 17th, 2006, 09:08 PM
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Unhappy Running Rich Please Help

ok I searched the threads to try to find some information on this. I will give some stats first. 1995 d-90, 3.9, 140,000 miles, 120lbs compression all the way around, (yes I know it is not great). Problem: It is running way to rich. What I have tried: new o2 sensors, different manufactured spark plugs, wires, cap rotor, and some other things I cant remember right now. Anyone have any clues? How can I check to see if the motor is running open or closed loop? THANKS IN ADVANCE

Byron
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  #2  
Old February 17th, 2006, 09:51 PM
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Well, the ECU actually is tuned a bit on the rich side as normal for most conditions.

But what symptoms is it giving you about running rich? Failed inspection? Fuel/Air gauge installed? Smell?

There are a number of possibilities that can make it run rich, such as old O2 sensors, mis-adjusted Mass Air sensor, worn out catalytic convertors and so on.

You did mention replacing the O2 sensors, were they Land Rover parts or from another source?

-Hans
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  #3  
Old February 17th, 2006, 10:09 PM
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org land rover parts

everything is org land rover parts, and the cats are new, again land rover parts
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  #4  
Old February 17th, 2006, 10:57 PM
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Hmmm....

What symptoms are showing you that it is running rich?

-Hans
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  #5  
Old February 17th, 2006, 11:54 PM
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bstraw -

I always defer to Hans regarding things mechanical when it comes to D-90 universe, but I thought I would double check some things in trying to understand the reason you are running rich.

You have changed a number of components that would affect the fuel/air issue, but just because it is new does not mean that it is ruled out in the process to determine where your issue exist.

You mentioned that you replaced the O2 sensors. Did you actually use a DVM and verify if the output voltage is in the proper range? Are the wires connected and in good shape? If the O2 sensor voltage remains high then the engine is probably running rich for reasons other than a faulty O2 sensor. I would double check and record every value so that you can eliminate and isolate the root cause.

You did not mention any fault codes. Are you getting any fault codes to indicate something is not acting on par?

MAFs can get spendy, so you want to convince yourself that you have ruled out all other issues before you waltz down that road. There has been some recent discussion about nominal MAF output voltages to verify you are in the correct range. I am not sure how far/fast you want to dig on this but it is easier to check this than purchase a bunch of expensive parts that you do not need.

I will give this a more complete dig and hope your follow-up will reveal clues so we can solve your problem. I would also give Robison a note to see what he thinks. He has been money like Hans at cutting the issues down fast so you can pinpoint the culprit.
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  #6  
Old February 18th, 2006, 12:38 AM
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Yep, Hoss is correct that we need to start identifying what's actually going on and what's wrong before recommending a solution. Replacing all the parts one at a time will eventually solve the problem, but if we start digging a bit more we can hopefully save you from that expensive route. There are a lot of options in this situation to look at, so we have to start at the symptoms themselves, so any more specifics you could give us would help to track down the issue..... otherwise we are stabbing at shadows.

Is the idle high? Engine running rough? What specifically is making you think it's running rich, and by how much?

-Hans
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  #7  
Old February 18th, 2006, 09:35 AM
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Lightbulb

every plug i put in it comes out black, and it is not just a tint of black, it is black black. It dosent matter if I run them for 50 miles or 5,000 miles come out the same. I have tried different types pf plugs i.e. ngk, bosh, champ. No change what so ever. You can smell it too, and i dont seem to be the only one to think this. Also fuel milage and power dont seem to be where they need to be. I know that is a very general statment but it just seems to be to rich. I have not tested the voltage to the 02's yet, but will. Do you know what range they should be in? Is the voltage different in a open and closed loop? Can this thing stick in a closed loop, and how can I tell if it is? Sorry for all the questions and thanks for all of your help.
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  #8  
Old February 18th, 2006, 10:38 AM
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No worries at all, none at all. We always ask a lot of questions actually, just how we are. We'll have a lot more for you too as we track this issue doen.

If you are getting the plugs that black in just 50 miles, I'm not sure it's a fueling issue. Do you have a part number on the plugs? Some folks have been able to solve plug fouling issues by going to a hotter heat range on them. What gas do you use, 87 octane or 93? Oh, and what is the timing set at... make sure to have the vacuum line from the distributor disconnected when you check that or you will be getting a false indication.

At 140,000 miles you might want to consider that it's possibly oil on the plugs and not fuel. Once the plugs get fouled, then you aren't going to get full combustion and that will cause unburnt fuel to be passed through the engine and it will get soaked into the cats causing a rich smell. Have you checked the condition of the PCV valve and the other vacuum lines leading up into the plenum? If you're passing oil into the system through the intake, it would be visible in that area. Possibly take the plenum off and see if you have any oil pooling around the trumpets.

-Hans
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  #9  
Old February 18th, 2006, 10:49 AM
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I presumed fuel as well. I have checked the vac advance and it seems to be working. I had the plenum off not too long ago and it was VERY carboned up but nopooling of oil. I am not leaning towards oil due to the fact that it dosent smoke at all, and when yousmell the plugs it just smells like fuel. PVC and lines I checked when I had the plenum off and also try to use seafoam o clean some of the gunck out. Do you know where I can find the test proceedure for checking the o2's and coolant temp switch? The plugs I have in now are the bosch plat. +4. The number for the plugs are 4478.
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  #10  
Old February 18th, 2006, 02:05 PM
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bstraw,

Verify
I would go over the crankcase ventilation issue as Hans suggested and double check the PCV filter to make sure it is getting enough air. It is quick and easy. If it is not ventilated correctly it can cause some of the symptoms you have mentioned. Just trying to nail down each issue one by one. The other thing I would do is check the ignition timing.

Spark plugs
I am not sure which Champion spark plug you have used ( RN12YC or RN9YC- I also have a LWB and I cannot remember which one I have used in it or the D-90), but others have had good luck with the NGK BPR6EY. I will use this plug next time I do a tune up. I have no experience with the Bosch platinum.

Lambda sensor Lucas 3LS
Since you have a '95, your O2 sensor should be ERR6729. The resistance check between white and red pins should be within the range of 5 to 12.5 ohms. I just checked a spare I have here and got a reading of 5.7 ohms. You can read more information about common problems and lambda sensor details at Just Lambda for your personal amusement.

On the wires that go to the O2 sensor, with the ignition switch at position II you should get battery voltage between pins 1 (white orange) and 3 (black).

At the ECM connector, ignition switch at position II and the engine at normal operating temperature, RPM at 1000 you should get a square wave output in the range of 0.5V to 1.0V betweek pins 23 and 4 and between pin 24 and 4.

Other thoughts
If you want to definitively determine that you are running rich, you might have to make a visit to your local friendly Rover shop that is armed with an exhaust gas analyzer. Hans brought up a good point about it possibly being an oil issue.

Hope this helps.

Edit - The ECM connector pins callouts are from my service manual for the RRC using a 14 CUX. The should be applicable to the D-90, but I want to make sure I am not confusing the issue. Someone else who has the Defender service manual information can verify it if you do not have the manual...paging John Robison.
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  #11  
Old February 18th, 2006, 03:32 PM
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One thing I do know about the platinums is that all platinum spark plugs tend to be very poor for self cleaning. In fact, more than a few people here have suggested that they have had issues when using them. For a suggestion on plugs to try, I'll PM Mike Hippert on this one, as he has more experience on plug types and heat ranges than I do.

Jeff gave the best link that I could recommend for testing the O2 sensors, in fact it was the same one I would have suggested. I'll look up and see if I can find some resistance curves to test out the coolant temp sensor. I would normally expect a check engine light to go off if that were the case, but you never know. It might be reading off, but not far enough wrong to trip the light.

Oh, and just in case the bulb is busted or something, have you checked the diagnostic box to see if any codes show up? On a 1995 there will be a small brown plastic box, the size of a cigarette pack, under the passenger seat near the ECU. It should be stamped 'Land Rover Diagnostic Display'. If there are any trouble codes, it has an LED display inside that you will be able to see through the semi-transparent plastic of the box.

Another thought would be to take it to a good shop that can do an exhaust test to find out exactly what is coming out the tailpipe. Where are you located anyways? We might be able to recommend a good shop or have one of us close by that can help check it out for you.

-Hans
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  #12  
Old February 18th, 2006, 09:11 PM
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Many of these old 14cux engine management systems run rich at one speed or another.

The fact that the plugs are black only says it's rich at idle. It may be lean at highway speed. To find out, you'd have to run it on a dyno with an exhaust analyser, or get it going 60 for a while, push in the clutch , cut the motor right away, and look at the plugs then.

The plugs change color very quickly.

You have already read how to check the wave from the o2 sensor. If the o2 sensor signal is transiting from 0.2 volt to 0.8 volt 1-2 times a second you're in closed loop mode. If it is not transiting the sensor is bad or you are in open loop mode.

I actually wrote a magazine article last year on this very topic - checking o2 sensors - which may be helpful to you. We are in the process of putting all the articles on the Robison Service web site . . . should be done soon. Anyway . . . http://catalog.roversnorth.com/downl...65_pg36_37.pdf
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Old February 18th, 2006, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robisonservice
...I actually wrote a magazine article last year on this very topic - checking o2 sensors - which may be helpful to you. We are in the process of putting all the articles on the Robison Service web site . . . should be done soon. Anyway . . . http://catalog.roversnorth.com/downl...65_pg36_37.pdf
Thanks for linking that article John. It is a very good read, and I like the way that the test results will end up in an either/or conclusion, else the test was done wrong. Clarity is a nice thing when you are hunting a problem on these beasts.

I am not sure how I missed your article when it was originally published, but I really appreciate your write-ups and help to everyone that owns a Land Rover.

bstraw - John is one of the best in the business, and I would follow his troubleshooting path to a tee. Hans has also offered up great advice to others here, both expert and novice. Hans mentioned the issue about fault codes on Land Rover Diagnostic Display, and that would be helpful to know if you are throwing off a code or not.
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Old February 19th, 2006, 11:09 AM
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Jeff, we have 30-40 of these articles and I think it will be better once we have a searchable index on the Robison Service site. And at this point I have several new ones each month.

We have an article on Waxoyl on Defenders coming soon in LRM. The Rover News has an article on rebuilding blocks with dropped liners, to be followed by a more technical version of same. We also have tech tips there and in Land Rover Lifestyle. LRL has an article on Range ROver Classic changes over the years.

I'll check back in and see what he finds on the rich running, which as I suggested, may not be rich at all.

John
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Old February 19th, 2006, 11:31 AM
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checked the o2's. The results where .2 to .9 but not several times a sec. It took about two sec for the change. Is that a problem? If not what should i try next?
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Old February 19th, 2006, 11:35 AM
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Byron, if you saw it moving from .2 to .9 it's probably in closed loop and hence not rich. Digital meters have differetn sample speeds. Your meter may only take a sample every second, in which case you could not see a twice-per-second wave.

You might look at it with a scope but if it's moving it's probably working.

As a final confimration you may want to try my last suggestion . . . drive 60 for 3-4 miles, then push in the clutch and cut the motor and look at the plugs then.
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Old February 19th, 2006, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robisonservice
Jeff, we have 30-40 of these articles and I think it will be better once we have a searchable index on the Robison Service site. And at this point I have several new ones each month.

We have an article on Waxoyl on Defenders coming soon in LRM. The Rover News has an article on rebuilding blocks with dropped liners, to be followed by a more technical version of same. We also have tech tips there and in Land Rover Lifestyle. LRL has an article on Range ROver Classic changes over the years.

I'll check back in and see what he finds on the rich running, which as I suggested, may not be rich at all.

John
John,

That is excellent. I read and reread two articles that you wrote in a Rovers North publication covering Range Rover Classic EAS systems. It was extremely helpful to me in understanding how the system worked and what to do to fix it. I ended up doing new Arnott baffles all around, and also refirbished the valve block and o-rings everywhere. The EAS is working better now than when I bought the truck used in 1996 ('93 MY). No question that your write ups help me stay with the EAS and fix it so that it will work long term.

I know how much of a pain in the arse it is to actually document service details including photos, but it is invaluable for me, and I am sure many others, to keep these Rovers working.

Many thanks again for all the help.
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  #18  
Old February 20th, 2006, 12:45 AM
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Still having trouble finding a source of the numbers to test the coolant temp sensor, but found the info for the Mass Air sensor.

http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/lucasmultipoint.htm

-Hans

Follow-up Post:

Finally, I found what I was looking for.

Besides testing the Mass Air sensor voltages as above, I'd also recommend testing the coolant temp sender.

The coolant temp sender is in the top-front of the intake manifold. There are actually two senders, you want the one that goes down into the manifold from the top, not the one that goes in from the front. You can just unplug the connector and measure between the two contacts with an ohm-meter. (But do it with the engine off, just to be safe.)

Here is a link to a resistance chart to check against.

http://www.discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3740

-Hans
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  #19  
Old February 21st, 2006, 12:08 PM
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Wow I missed allot this weekend :P

Here is some good info on codes and checking sensors

http://www.rangie.com/articles_topic...at=6&subCat=26

And all the cool kids run NGK BPR6EY Spark plugs!

Oh and I agree with whatever John Robison says! He is the man!

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
Still having trouble finding a source of the numbers to test the coolant temp sensor, but found the info for the Mass Air sensor.

http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/lucasmultipoint.htm

-Hans

Hmm intresting, when it gets a little warmer out I am going to have to throw the volt meter inline with the MAF to measure the voltage. If it looks to be on the high side maybe I'll throw a resistor on it to drop the voltage a little as i think mine is running a bit rich currently. This would be a heck of alot cheaper then buying a new MAF!
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  #20  
Old February 21st, 2006, 06:27 PM
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"And all the cool kids run NGK BPR6EY Spark plugs!"

Those are hotter plugs than stock. What about pinging? I'm caught between rich and ping. Yeouch. I went all the way up to 9s but they fouled. Backing down now and retarding timing to keep the ping down.

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