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  #21  
Old May 11th, 2011, 03:17 PM
NoVaKevin
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viscious fan clutch provides maximum cooling by engaging the fan so it maxes its speed when engine too hot.

they are pretty common problems i believe. and, i think there have been a few people who have had to replace it two or three times.

check relays for fan, make sure fan clutch working properly, tstat, cheap stuff first.

ever replaced your water pump?

somewhere on here i believe pendy has a conversion so you dont have to use the viscious set up or something like that.
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  #22  
Old May 11th, 2011, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by founD90 View Post
John - So does that mean I shouldn't re-core my radiator if the mechanic recommends it? What's a viscous clutch?

What symptoms was your truck exhibiting that caused you to do those things?
First off, I have always been paranoid on overheating (probably from reading too many posts on the forum). So when I got my truck (Aug 2008) and as part of general maintenance, I went ahead and replaced all the hoses and the thermostat.

Fast forward to summer 2010, I am driving the truck, flip on the AC and next thing I know the temp gauge is jumping towards the red. Take it into the shop and they really cannot find anything wrong with the cooling system. IR thermometer on the hoses are not reading as hot as the stock temp gauge is showing, so we decide it is time to upgrade the temp gauge and sender to something more accurate. Ended up going with something like this from VDO: http://www.egauges.com/vdo_ind.asp?T...ion&PN=310-105. I also had the sender replaced to match. I figured now I could better monitor temp and know if I was just running warm, or really hot.

Drive the truck around the rest of the summer, mostly short hops (needed to replace suspension) and with no A/C. Temp is fine.

Fast forward to 2011, I have replaced all the suspension and am ready to take the truck on longer trips. It is a spring day with temps in the low 70s. I drive the truck at highway speeds for 15-20 minutes and pull into a drive-thru to grab a bite for the drive home. As I am sitting in line, I notice the temp gauge rising; 190, 200, 210... At this point I shut the engine off while sitting in line. I figure once I can get back on the highway and force cold air through the radiator/engine compartment the temp should drop. If not, time to call for a tow. Fortunately, I get back on the highway and the temp drops back to under 190.

Back to the shop. They run it and see some cold spots in the radiator. Since my plan is to slowly rebuild the major components of the truck, we decide to go ahead and recore the radiator and upgrade to a three core. Get that done and it is still getting warm at idle. Check the Viscous Clutch (is the part which engages the fan to turn instead of free-wheeling) on the fan and decide to go ahead and replace it. At this point, the only thing not replaced is the water pump...

So where I am at now, is with no A/C the truck will run at 180 degrees. Once warm and sitting at idle, it will rise to somewhere between 190+. With the A/C on, it will run at 190+ and idle just shy of 210. My agreed to shutdown point is anywhere north of 225.

We agreed replacing the engine fan with electric fans is not where we want to go. Other thought might be to take the Hella lights off the front bumper, but I really don't think this is the issue.

That's my story. I'd be open to hearing any thoughts on steps missed or other things to try. I figure these trucks run out in the desert all the time, so overheating shouldn't be an issue...
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  #23  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:30 PM
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This sounds all to familiar:

* are you loosing any radiator fluid? Are there any bubbles in the overflow reservoir? In other words, is there a possibility of a head leak? How do the plugs look?
* another possibility is the temp sender to the ECU. I believe there are two temp senders: one to the gauge and the other to the ECU for a 94 3.9.
* silly question: is the belt tight and in good shape and is the fan shroud in place?
* can you hear the noticeable increase in fan noise when the viscous temp clutch engages? It is noticable when you increase the PRMs after sitting for a bit when hot.

And yes, the floors in mine get hot in the summer. The cats sit right under the floor. Remember, they essentially stuffed a 3.9 V8 petrol in a car designed for a four cylinder diesel. If I ever pull the motor, I will coat the fire wall and tunnel with a special insulating paint (I believe there are others that have done this??) AND I was thinking of placing a vent in the door or before the jamb near the floor. The AC has a foot vent (small circular) for cooling the feet that works quite nicely. I, however, only occasionally us my AC…..still nice to have for the quick cool down after biking and for defogging.
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  #24  
Old May 11th, 2011, 09:20 PM
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In my case:
* Not losing any fluid or any problems with the heads.
* The second temp sender may be next
* Yep, replaced the belts when hoses were done and check on the fan shroud
* Never listened for the clutch...

Out of curiousity, what temp do people normally see with theirs at idle?
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  #25  
Old May 11th, 2011, 09:59 PM
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Mine seems to stay in the middle. With current temps in the 70s the electric only comes on after sitting for a bit. NOW it may be actually moving more than it shows as the temp and sender are old. But the electric fan confirms it is running cool.
It only moved towards the red when climbing a mountain, loaded on an approximately 115 degree day. That's when I noticed the gauge read incorrectly at higher temps. I would like to get a new sender and the VDO (enumerated) temp dial.
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  #26  
Old August 15th, 2011, 10:38 PM
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Like to bring this back up:

Its been in the low 100's here in Houston and I am noticing temps climbing upwards of 210 in traffic. The weird thing is that if I turn off the truck, run in to grab something and turn the truck back on, temps are as high as 225.

Thoughts? Waterpump, hoses, thermostat all replaced with in 12 months. Radiator repaired /cleaned out 2 years ago.
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  #27  
Old August 16th, 2011, 09:58 AM
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With the crazy temps in Dallas, I am still having issues with mine. Seems to stabilize around 210, but I don't have confidence to really push it on long trips. Not sure what my next step is...
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  #28  
Old August 16th, 2011, 11:26 AM
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John; would it be safe to assume that operating temp has an ambient component to it? I didnt realy see any temp flucations until I switched out the factory gauge to the VDO Vision Series. Maybe the new gauge is more sensative to than the factory? I as well do not know what the next steps are... A different mix on the coolant? More cores in the radiator?
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  #29  
Old August 16th, 2011, 11:29 AM
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Temps climbing with the AC on sounds like classic condenser fan failure.
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  #30  
Old August 16th, 2011, 12:17 PM
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Nick Vogel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crown14 View Post
Temps climbing with the AC on sounds like classic condenser fan failure.
I am piggy-backing off of this thread for the general overheating issues around temp.

I havent used my AC in years. I just dont think it is worth it on a ST and have contimplated removing the entire thing.
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  #31  
Old August 16th, 2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97-D90-736 View Post
Like to bring this back up:

Its been in the low 100's here in Houston and I am noticing temps climbing upwards of 210 in traffic. The weird thing is that if I turn off the truck, run in to grab something and turn the truck back on, temps are as high as 225.

Thoughts? Waterpump, hoses, thermostat all replaced with in 12 months. Radiator repaired /cleaned out 2 years ago.
Heatsoak. Its common for the coolant temps to rise after turning a vehicle off because there is no airflow over the radiator and no water circulation with the water pump not turning.

------ Follow up post added August 16th, 2011 10:51 AM ------

It is also common for coolant temps to rise some with the AC on because of the extra load from compressor and the extra heat generated from the condenser when the AC is running. The fan in front is designed to compensate for the extra temps generated, but is rather small to compensate for any additional problems. If you truck is truly running hot and the fan should be running, check to see if there is voltage to the fan at the relay and outside at the fan itself. If you have question as to other contribution issues that may keep the fan from coming on, find the fan relay, disconnect the wire coming from the ECU that tells the relay to turn on and manually activate the relay with the appropriate voltage. Keep in mind that the ECU may be putting out a ground signal or a positive signal.
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  #32  
Old August 16th, 2011, 03:24 PM
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I ran a test a few years back out in Moab with a new motor,radiator,ect...everything was new for the test. With temps in the 100+ range things still got warm. Took off all the junk(lights,hi-lift,ect) in front of the radiator and things worked alot better. All I'm saying is make sure you're not blocking the flow too much. Defenders tend to run abit hotter than the other Rovers due to the limited space of radiator. And for the gentlemen whose temps go up when everything is turned on except the ac...unplug and ground the wire going to your temp sender and see if your gauge does a clean sweep to hot. If it does then replace the sender since they love to go bad and cause a ground which will make other things act up.
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  #33  
Old August 16th, 2011, 04:03 PM
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One item of note not mentioned is that the defender wiring harness apparently has a wire for the lead from temp gauge to sender that really is to undersized for the job. This was mentioned to me by Pendy the day I picked my 110 up back in 2006 as he was swapping out my OEM for a VDO gauge. Even today this appears to be true and I intend to swap that wire with a 14 awg in the very near future. You really have to have a good connector on that wire to the sender and no resistance in that wire. If you turn your lights on, and see a slight bump in your temp on the gauge, I believe that is an indication that you have increased resistance to your sender just from the harness.

As a first step, check corrosion and fit of your sender wire, as there might really be no problem at all, and just a false high reading.

I have this problem and at engine op temp on the highway, turning on an electrical load like lights or A/C will add an easy 5-10 deg to my engine temp on the VDO. Intend to go straight from gauge to sender with a 14awg to resolve this.
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  #34  
Old August 16th, 2011, 04:41 PM
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Going to check the sender tonight via the ground method. There are several size(s) senders for the aftermarket VDO gauges. Does anyone know what size the 4.0 intake manifold takes?
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  #35  
Old August 17th, 2011, 10:19 AM
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Here is what I have learned about lights, winches and other things in front of the radiator. If your truck with lights, winch, etc, cools at speed with the ac on, the engine is loaded therefore generating close to max heat, then airflow is what is keeping the engine cool. In other words, if it cools with these items at speed, it should cool at idle speeds as well. This shows that the radiator is doing its job adequately. When you stop or slow down, the airflow should be maintained by the fan. If you are heating up at idle you need more airflow or more or less coolant flow. It is very hard to diagnose coolant problems on stockish vehicles that did not overheat when new. If you are overheating with all stock components at any rpm, parts are clogged or worn.

------ Follow up post added August 17th, 2011 08:31 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97-D90-736 View Post
Going to check the sender tonight via the ground method. There are several size(s) senders for the aftermarket VDO gauges. Does anyone know what size the 4.0 intake manifold takes?
The wiring harness and particularly the sender wire size is more than adequate to relay the relatively small amount of resistance to the ECU and or gauge. Gauges can run a sweep of resistance from anywhere from 0 ohms to 300 ohms. I am not sure of exactly what the stock senders are putting out at various temps, but I am pretty sure they fall between those numbers. VDO gauges use 10-180 ohm senders or 240-33ohm senders of which have the potential to draw a maximum of 1.2 amps and .36 amps respectively. The wire size in our harness is easily large enough to carry this load unless the wire has broken down internally because of corrosion or has significant corrosion at the terminals, both of which can add resistance to the wire. The bottom line here is that these trucks electrical systems worked fine as new. The wire and component quality was not that great in my opinion, but it did work. A simple test is to run a secondary wire from the sender to the gauge and see if it makes any difference.
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  #36  
Old August 17th, 2011, 11:49 AM
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Good points, but also to be clear your test is specific to petrol engines. TDI's are the opposite, which I know as I recently had to replace my radiator. With my previous radiator, I would run hot on the highway (210F) at 65-70 mph on a 98F day over this summer, when I would pull off to let it cool down, it would take 20 minutes to drop 10 deg, which told me the radiator did not have capacity to shed heat. After I replaced the radiator, the highway cruise temp of 205F would drop to thermostat opening of 190 in about 2 min after pulling into a gas station. Not even enough time to pull over and open the bonnet. TDI's dump heat at idle like it's going out of style if the cooling system is working.

This is validated by my most recent experience and observations.

As for the wire, maybe new, but if Pendy says the wire may be too small, I'm going with his gospel. He da man.
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  #37  
Old August 17th, 2011, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waggoner5 View Post
Here is what I have learned about lights, winches and other things in front of the radiator. If your truck with lights, winch, etc, cools at speed with the ac on, the engine is loaded therefore generating close to max heat, then airflow is what is keeping the engine cool. In other words, if it cools with these items at speed, it should cool at idle speeds as well. This shows that the radiator is doing its job adequately. When you stop or slow down, the airflow should be maintained by the fan. If you are heating up at idle you need more airflow or more or less coolant flow. It is very hard to diagnose coolant problems on stockish vehicles that did not overheat when new. If you are overheating with all stock components at any rpm, parts are clogged or worn.

------ Follow up post added August 17th, 2011 08:31 AM ------



The wiring harness and particularly the sender wire size is more than adequate to relay the relatively small amount of resistance to the ECU and or gauge. Gauges can run a sweep of resistance from anywhere from 0 ohms to 300 ohms. I am not sure of exactly what the stock senders are putting out at various temps, but I am pretty sure they fall between those numbers. VDO gauges use 10-180 ohm senders or 240-33ohm senders of which have the potential to draw a maximum of 1.2 amps and .36 amps respectively. The wire size in our harness is easily large enough to carry this load unless the wire has broken down internally because of corrosion or has significant corrosion at the terminals, both of which can add resistance to the wire. The bottom line here is that these trucks electrical systems worked fine as new. The wire and component quality was not that great in my opinion, but it did work. A simple test is to run a secondary wire from the sender to the gauge and see if it makes any difference.
I'll just comment to your two points. I disagree with you on both.

The stock radiator is manufactured to exchange heat away from the engine in a vehicle of stock configuration. And the radiator is constructed with an industrial core design. This means the tube size of the radiator is very small. Although it is very efficient design it is not up to the task. There is no redundancy to its design. Its size barely does the job. So it can not overcome a much greater demand for cooling when it presents itself.. And its small tube design while efficient in a small package lends itself to have a short lifespan. The radiators clog very easily. Modified vehicles need a larger radiator. Stock vehicles need a well functioning radiator at the least. In our defender applications.

The VDO gauge replacement most often used to replace the factory Land Rover gauges asks for a wire size practically twice the gauge of the stock Land Rover wiring harness. For correct function. This gauge has numerals on it's face which are an improvement over the factory design. And the Stock Land Rover gauges are made by VDO as well. I would argue that the "vision" series VDO replacement gauge is a direct replacement for the factory gauge. And its installation instructions call for a much thicker gauge wire then in the Land Rover wiring harness.

Many and most gauge problems arise from a ground problem to the instrument panel. A better ground connection between the engine and bulkhead or directly to the instrument panel grounds will correct the problem. So the wire between the sender and the gauge as well as the ground connection between battery to the gauge are suspect in a over temperature reading. If the gauge reading is suspect.

I have stood on this soapbox a number of times here at D90 source before. And I relay this information based on my direct experience.
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  #38  
Old August 18th, 2011, 11:27 AM
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So what I am hearing you say is that Rover has engineered a radiator that is insufficient for the gas engine defenders?
I do agree that dirty radiators, hot rodded engines and any other heat generating additions could make the stock cooling system not work as designed, but not agree that Rovers design was too small to begin with. In the generations of D90s that were still new in the 90's, I did not hear of any widespread issues with overheating, so why years later now that they have heat issues, in your opinion is the radiator too small? A stock radiator in a 66 mustang with ac, and a 289 V8 has roughly 890 cu inches as a 2 row radiator. The Rover has roughly 995 cu inches with a similar 2 row design. Granted times have changed and engine manufactures decided that engines that run hotter are more efficient, but the Rover is better than 10% bigger. My stock D90 living in Dallas never over heated when new, but has issues now that it has 100k miles on it, but my D110 with a hot rod V8, all new parts, with AC, bumper, winch, lights, etc, has no issue cooling even under extreme load. Stock radiator, custom shroud with 2 smaller electric Spal fans, thermostatically controlled going up a 6% grade for almost 20 miles at 60mph. We cannot expect parts that are 15+ years old to perform as new, wiring included unless they are kept up to new specs.

On the wiring issue. I cannot disagree that aftermarket gauges could ask for larger gauge wire, but twice the size of 18ga? Thats 9ga wire and capable of carrying over 20 amps of current. 20 amps is equal to a pair of Hella 4000s running. VDO, by there own wiring instruction diagram calls for wire of no less than 16ga be used on all connections including senders with the exception of the grounds which should be no less than 14ga.(http://www.egauges.com/pdf/vdo/0-515-012-123.pdf)

I completely agree that grounds and factory connection problems are the culprits in most of the gauge readings whether at the cluster or the sender.

No intention of taking you off the soapbox and agree with you on some of the specific issues of the age related Rover issues, but cannot agree that Rover designed a system that doesnt work. They just did a very bad job on the execution of their design.

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  #39  
Old August 18th, 2011, 12:39 PM
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Maybe it is a failure to communicate.

IMO Land Rover designed a radiator that meets the minimum demands of a stock vehicle. No redundancy or room to allow proper cooling when modifications are made. And the design is not similar to the old mustang radiator. May have some cut open cores if that would help you see what am trying to describe. Yes I believe the radiators are to small. And the core design slows the coolant flow, as well as the large oil cooler in the far tank. Counteracts the job of the thermostat really. Yes older radiators and engines blocks themselves build up deposites that harm cooling operation.

Mispoke here, "wire size practically twice the gauge of the stock Land Rover wiring harness" Meant to say the outer diameter of the wire VDO call for in its installation instructions is "twice the size(outer diameter)" of the "stock" size wire. What VDO suggests is what should have been used factory. And any connectors inline should have been adjusted as well. There is no redundancy in the factory application, once again. To account for the "aging" of the equiptment. I do not think Land Rover met the requirments of the manufacturers of the guages they installed in the vehicles.

You say "but cannot agree that Rover designed a system that doesnt work. They just did a very bad job on the execution of their design."

So I agree it works in a stock or very close to stock configuration. And I agree that the "execution of their design" does not have enough redundancy in it. For the "Best 4x4 By Far"
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  #40  
Old August 18th, 2011, 01:16 PM
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Jim, what is your recomendation for a replacement radiator with a Tdi and intercooler?
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