Replacement Motor and Trans for 110 - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old June 28th, 2004, 09:51 PM
gearco
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James T. Johnston, Jr.
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Replacement Motor and Trans for 110

Would like to get the group's feedback about an idea I have for putting a different motor and trans in a mid 80s 110 with the factory 3.5 litre dual carb setup and a 5 speed manual transmission. I have 3 other Land Rovers, 2 Defenders and a Discovery. With the 3.9 and 4.0, none of them have enough power IMHO. I don't like the idea of the 4.6 litre Land Rover motor as it is 2 valve, gets lousy mileage and while an impovement in power (222HP and 300 fp torque) has its own installation issues. I like the ZF automatic transmission-it is really smooth and versatile. For the 110 I want a motor with more horsepower and torque, and is more fuel efficient. My idea is to install a BMW 4.0 litre motor out of a 740 or 540 sedan, or the 4.4 litre BMW found in the 2003 Range Rover and BMW X5. I have a source for this motor out of a BMW wrecking yard at a reasonable price. The output specs for these motors are the same: Both BMW motors have 282 horsepower, 324 ft/lbs of torque and are fairly fuel efficient, getting 15-20 mpg. The BMW motor will bolt up to the Land Rover ZF automatic trans using the BMW bell housing. You'd get the motor to run by taking the factory BMW computer and engine harness and connect only those functions to the computer required for engine managment. The ZF transmission would be the non-computer type so you could retain the original cable driven speedo. You'd use both upper and lower BMW motor mounts for the engine and use the Land Rover automatic trans. mounts. The transfer case would be in the same position so the drive shafts would not need to be refitted. OK, please be devil's advocate. Tell me what I have missed or miscalculated.
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  #2  
Old June 28th, 2004, 10:07 PM
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Will the BMW ECM be OK without being able to talking to the trans? It would be cool if you can get it to work. And if you can put in a 4.4 then why not the BMW 4.6, even more power!
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  #3  
Old June 28th, 2004, 10:39 PM
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Arthur Maravelis
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I say the best route is a Chevy 350, 700R4 and an LT230 adaptor. This is the best of most worlds: power, availability, up front cost, repair cost, fuel economy with an efi setup.

I have an extra adaptor for $650, had two done in S. Africa.
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Old June 28th, 2004, 10:53 PM
gearco
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James T. Johnston, Jr.
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Mike: The ZF trans will be the non-computer type, pre 96 I think, so there isn't any need for the engine computer to talk to the trans. the engine computer will handle only motor functions. You would connect a 12volt input to the BMW computer and then connect the engine harness wires to the correct pins on the computer. As for the BMW 4.6 motor, I'm not familiar with it. I've been told by a BMW guru that the new 745i motor will not bolt up the the Land Rover ZF trans. Thanks for the feedback. Jim

Follow-up Post:

Arthur: is the Chevy 350 Vortec a 4 valve motor now? i understand it is a good motor and will go 100,000 miles before you do anything to it. the Chevy motor setup could be a cheaper route, but is the Chevy motor much heavier than the BMW? i think it is because it has a cast iron block and you'd have to change the front springs. i'm looking for something about equal in weight to the aluminum block GM motor that Land Rover installed. the truck is heavy enough as it is. also, i'm not sure the shift lever and center console would look factory like the ZF trans does. since LR used the ZF trans, it made a nice console with provision for a transfer case shift lever. thanks.
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  #5  
Old June 29th, 2004, 09:05 AM
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Arthur Maravelis
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James,

1. I wouldn't use a Vortec. For me an older 350 is just fine, simpler electronics - or even a carb version.

2. Yes, it is heavier than any aluminum motor but you can easily compenste with the right OME springs.

3. As far as matching the center console, sure that is a nice looking setup but in all honesty a custom one may have to be fabricated. No big deal. Heck, if you have a pro do it they can match up one to the factory look.

I had plans to fit this setup in a 110 but will first see how a 300Tdi/R380 works.
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  #6  
Old June 29th, 2004, 10:12 AM
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Get a used 300tdi setup with the ZF from the UK. Then mod out the 300 with a larger turbo unit from the 2.8, fat intercooler, etc.

Define what kind of "power" your looking for. Strictly horses, or torque, off the line, cruising, highway top end, etc.
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Old June 29th, 2004, 10:20 AM
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Arthur Maravelis
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I don't know, Dave. ECR told me fitting a 300Tdi/auto in a 110 isn't worth it. To max out a Tdi's tune just to run an auto may not be good for it. If you must have a diesel in this setup then the 2.8 is the only option for me. But then you will NEVER recover the cost of the conversion through fuel savings. NEVER! So, you may as well go with a V8.
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  #8  
Old June 29th, 2004, 10:28 AM
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Hey now, nobody said anything about recovering costs...

That's just plain crazy.
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  #9  
Old June 29th, 2004, 10:41 PM
gearco
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James T. Johnston, Jr.
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I thought about doing the diesel too, but the power/weight ratio wasn't there. Talked to ECR and they said forget about using an automatic, even with their "hotrod" 2.8 litre powerstroke. Said it sapped too much power. There doesn't seem to be any suitable turbo diesels between the 2.8 powerstroke and the 6 litre Ford or Chevy. I agree that you have to assess what your power requirements are. I use my trucks for relatively fast city and over the road traffic, and on the weekends over farm roads and mountain terrain; not rock crawling. I need something that will get me there at highway speeds and will double as a tractor on the weekends. Tired of hitting the throttle at 50 on the highway on a hill and nothing happening. As for a 350 Chevy with a carb, not interested for a number of reasons. Weight is one, fuel inefficiency is another, and with a carb there seems always to be a problem-choke, overflowing, vapor lock. Tilting the truck high in the front or to the side affects fuel flow, flooding is an issue. I did a Chevy 350 motor in an FJ55 Land Cruiser a few years ago. First did an Edelbrock 4 barrel; hated it, then did a Holley 650CFM. It was better but not perfect and I would rather have had fuel injection where you set it and forget it. Thanks for your comments.
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  #10  
Old June 30th, 2004, 12:42 AM
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Arthur Maravelis
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Well...

1. weight: a SBC is no heavier than a Tdi, and there are plenty of these in 90/110's. With an aluminum block weight becomes a definite non-issue.

2. fuel economy: with a simple TBI setup you can surely get 15mpg, better than a Rover V8.

3. carb problems: RPI swears by the Weber 500, eliminating fuel starvation and flooding problems.

At any rate, I've been in a 350 RR auto and the power was PLENTY good! That was a ZF. Switch to the 700R4 and you get a better first gear to boot, a better tranny in all respects.
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  #11  
Old June 30th, 2004, 08:36 AM
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What's the gross weight of the 110? Just curious.
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  #12  
Old June 30th, 2004, 09:35 AM
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Well, it depends on which manual you reference as they all seem to be different. The one I have for the says 3050kg - for all versions 2.25/2.5D/V8/ST/SW/HiCap. Now that seems wrong as my manual for the D90 says its GVW is 6001 lbs.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 09:42 AM
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So then how I think the real question is, how much more does a NAS 93 110 weigh then a NAS 97 SW?
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  #14  
Old June 30th, 2004, 09:49 AM
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Arthur Maravelis
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No, the real issue is a TDi weighs more than a SBC. The axles can handle the weight of a TDi so a SBC simply offers more power.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 09:56 AM
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Well Art, I was going with Dave M's question as he might know what it is like to drive a 2.8 with a auto in a 90 SW, so depending on how much more a 110 weighs then a 90 he could provide some good feed back.

I on the other hand kinda like the idea of a SBC, but I also like driving in deep water, so that is my only drawback on the hole SBC thing. I personaly think a diesel in the 4 liter range would be great for power on and off road.
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  #16  
Old June 30th, 2004, 10:24 AM
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Arthur Maravelis
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Mike,

Well, I don't know what/whom to believe any more. ECR first says the 2.8/auto in a 110 will be SWEEEET. Now it appears they've done a 180.

As for me, the 110 is a people hauler so it won't see water crossings. I prefer the ease of an auto over the fuel savings - except for range.. If I can fit custom tanks under each side and have the whole system plumbed for no user control then I am there.
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  #17  
Old June 30th, 2004, 11:09 AM
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Well the easy way is a built 4.6, blown if necessary for the power and screw the gas mileage.

The auto is sucking a lot of your power as well.

I don't think a BMW V8 will fit happily due to the location of the oil pan, however, a BMW six was a factory fit in South Africa.

My dream is a built M3 motor and an R380 in my D90 but I am not sure you can make the zf fit.

Bottom line is that a well running 4.6 is good for 225hp and 300ft/lbs, stick a blower on it and you will be more than the 4.4 BMW, with the best part that, aside from the blower, it would be all factory fit and parts.

Ron
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  #18  
Old June 30th, 2004, 11:21 AM
artm
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Arthur Maravelis
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Ahhh, dreams...

Mine was a 2.8/auto but not at $10K, unless I can sell of the TDi/R380 for $5K - ha, ha, ha!

Now it very well may be a SBC/700R4.

How things change...
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  #19  
Old June 30th, 2004, 11:32 AM
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You could buy the 2.8 motor for $5K outright. A diesel ZF would be around 1200-1800 depending on availability and mileage.

The problem as you know is all of the diesel "bits". Those are what cost you. Mounts, intercoolers, radiator, fuel pumps and lines, other various brackets, AC compressor and bracket, starter, etc.

Comparison info for those who want to know:
PERFORMANCE COMPARISONS

LR 200 & 300 Tdi International HS2.8 TGV

Displacement :- 2,495 cc 2,785 cc
Maximum power :- 111 bhp @ 4,000 rpm 135 bhp @ 3,800 rpm
Maximum governed rpm 4,000 4,000
Maximum torque :- 195 lbf ft @ 1,800 rpm 277 lbf ft @ 1,400 rpm

LR TD5 Mazda SL35Ti

Displacement :- 2,495 cc 3,455 cc
Maximum power :- 136 bhp @ 4,200 rpm 135 bhp @ 3,450 rpm
Max governed rpm :- 4,200 3,650
Maximum torque :- 221 lbf ft @ 1,950 rpm (manual) 260 lbf ft @ 2,000 rpm
232 lbf ft @ 1,950 rpm (auto)
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  #20  
Old June 30th, 2004, 05:09 PM
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Robert Ragland
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You may want to be careful installing a "car" engine in the Defender. These engines may not be designed to operate properly at the driving angles a Defender is capable of reaching. Typically engines for 4x4's receive modifications ensuring that functions such as engine lubrication still perform as needed.
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