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  #21  
Old June 30th, 2004, 08:19 PM
artm
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Arthur Maravelis
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First, the SBC is also in truck trim - or "4x4" as you call it. Second, that's nothing a homemade windage tray can't solve. Easy job.
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  #22  
Old June 30th, 2004, 09:04 PM
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James T. Johnston, Jr.
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OK, guys, let's refocus. I'm not really sure the SBC would be cheaper in the long run than the BMW motor. For about $2,500 you can buy a 4.0 litre BMW motor with 75,000 miles, with harness, ancillaries and a computer and motor mounts. If you buy a late model SBC in reasonable shape you won't do much better, and if you do the carb deal you need to buy the right intake and install the right carb to the tune of $400-$500. If I were going to do a SBC it wouldl probably go the Vortec route. See http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~jrice/cruiser/FJ40.html for some details on how to do an install of a Vortec. It isn't simple, but it looks like a much better setup than the carburetor approach.

Here's why I thought the BMW motor would be the best choice: a. weight is about the same as the stock 3.5 motor; b. increased horsepower (282); c. increased torque (334); d. it bolts right up to the Land Rover ZF transmission without an adapter-you use the bellhouseing off the BMW motor; e. you keep the factory speedo and odo; and lastly... If you ever sell the truck I think you have something worth a lot more than if you have a SBC-just my personal opinion. As someone said the six cylinder BMW motor was put in the LR in South Africa; and we all know BMW put a lot of their own stuff on the Rovers while they owned them, including the 4.4 motor in the new Range Rover.

One thing somebody said that is a concern. That's that the BMW V8 oil pan might not work. Does anybody know for sure this is a problem? I had anticipated having to modify the pan to work; it will be tricky because it is made of aluminum.

Many thanks for the comments. Jim
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  #23  
Old June 30th, 2004, 09:55 PM
artm
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Arthur Maravelis
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OK...

1. You can buy used, running SBC's for VERY little money - much less than $2500. Even a new one in truck trim can be had for less than $1500. Ancillaries are also dirt cheap. No way a BMW setup is cheaper. And what about repairs? No contest.

2. Why go Vortec with all that computer crap? If you want EFI a simple TBI setup is good enough for me. Easy startups and instant response, that's all I want from EFI and TBI is easy to work on.

3. Are the BMW motors truck motors? Which 6-cyl is used in SA? With an auto? These numbers are impressive.
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  #24  
Old July 1st, 2004, 04:43 AM
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James T. Johnston, Jr.
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Arthur: the TBI systems I'm familiar with cost a minimum of $1,000. That puts you at $2,500 up front. but I agree that parts for the SBC are cheaper that the BMW stuff. I don't know anything about the 6 cylinder BMW motor used in SA. I like these motors, they are smooth and produce good power. My only initial thought about them is that they are a little longer than the V8 and don't know if it would require moving the trans and transfer case back as little. changing the driveshafts is something i'd like to avoid.

in terms of marketablility if you wanted to sell, do you think the truck is worth more to most folks with the BMW or Chevy motor? or does it matter?
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  #25  
Old July 1st, 2004, 09:16 AM
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Arthur Maravelis
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1. Funny how you compare used BMW with new SBC pricing. I can get a complete TBI motor used for $1500.

2. If you can readily fit that BMW V8 to the ZF then that looks good. I don't mind the 6 if it's got good numbers; resizing driveshafts is no big deal.

3. marketability: to me not an issue as I plan to keep it. To any Rover fan it's the complete setup that's the issue - not just the motor. If it's not a hack job you're OK. Honestly, if that BMW V8 fits easily then, of course, it will be worth more as it would be a less custom (drastic) conversion.
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  #26  
Old July 1st, 2004, 10:00 AM
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Robert Ragland
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Art,

My comments about the "car" engine were more directed toward the BMW engines out of a 5 or 7 series. I know they typically modify these for use in SUV's.
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  #27  
Old July 1st, 2004, 11:34 AM
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Doug Walker
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Value of vehicle? As far as Defenders go, we all know that closest to stock, closest to concourse, fetches the most $$. Selling one for high value with a non-rover engine isn't going to be easy.
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  #28  
Old July 1st, 2004, 01:42 PM
Eric Siepmann
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Eric W. Siepmann
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I would agree with Doug. I would pass on a D with a non LR motor. A nicely done 4.6 or 300tdi would be worth more if were done nicely in my eyes.

EwS
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  #29  
Old July 1st, 2004, 03:05 PM
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Arthur Maravelis
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Well, if you've ever seen Timm Cooper's work with non-LR motors you would change your mind.

In my opinion a stock SBC/700R4 beats any stock LR setup - IF DONE RIGHT. A mildly tuned SBC beats any moderately tuned LR V8.

I haven't looked into non-LR diesel setups enough to have a strong opinion but I would bet the best setup is NOT LR's. This coming from a future 300Tdi owner who hopes it will be all it's supposed to be!

While a non-enthusiast will want that concours, stock setup an enthusiast will want the better performing conversion - IF DONE RIGHT.

And, as far as doing it right, others have already done it so it's simply a matter of talking to them and copying.
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  #30  
Old July 1st, 2004, 03:32 PM
Eric Siepmann
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Eric W. Siepmann
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But that's just it. Not that many people do it right. Sure a 350 beats a mildly tuned LR but your talking about more displacement right of the bat. The LR is still a 215 derivative. I just don't like the franken-rover look nor ever will. I mean whats next, we follow the series guys and start putting mercruiser engines in our 90's as well. I've heard Timm does great work.

Just a traditionalist. As far as an enthusiast, I will always try to keep a LR motor in the truck. I am saving for a deisel swap in the future if I can figure out how to get it through IL emmissions. I do mostly trail riding and the 4.0 is more than adequate in the time being. Keeping my rover 100% rover if at all possible.

EwS
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  #31  
Old July 1st, 2004, 03:44 PM
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David Marchand
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Emissions should not be a problem. First, you need your title changed to read that you have a 4 cylinder diesel. Easy to do, usually means resubmitting your title with a form and $25.

Then check to see what emissions checks they do on diesels. Most states do not, especially on a repower of a vehicle. And if they do, they usually don't have 4 wheel dynos.

Don't get hung up on the details. Just do it.
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  #32  
Old July 1st, 2004, 03:56 PM
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Arthur Maravelis
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Of course, I meant displacement for displacementa SBC beats a LR, in stats and costs.

Now, as far as the Mercruiser bastards, there is a valid reason for it: people want to use their Series trucks in today's world. Come on, I have a S3 88 and doing any highway driving is a trip! Sure, to do it right involves much more work but that's what do if you want to use it nicely.

As far as your diesel conversion, I don;t know if it's as easy as Dave says. I mean, if the Mass inspection system had any meat it would look up a 97 D90 and see that is should only have a gasoline motor. Your registration says diesel? Well, you can't get it inspected. Perhaps folks are getting away with it now but you need something more secure than that.

If your state allows assembled vehicle registrations I feel that's the way to go. You show receipts for all the parts, put it together and call it whatever you wish. Get it appraised and insured for what it really is and you're all set. Heck, tell them the motor is from 1970 and yo don't even have to deal with emissions in most states.

You're right about the 4.0. I find it totally satisfying in my D90 but the 110 will be manual and I will eventually need an auto, hence the need for a conversion. Who knows, in the end I may just fit a 4.6/ZF. But I sure would like to stay diesel!
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  #33  
Old July 1st, 2004, 03:57 PM
Eric Siepmann
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Eric W. Siepmann
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Still checking on the repower. Il has some strange laws. They test all passenger vehicles from electric to deisel. Mandatory or your lisence and registration get suspended. Don't ask how I know this we're a very socialist state.

Love to get it now but still about 3,800 away for the engine/ancilliaries and would still need the R380, T-case, and new galv. frame.

EwS
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  #34  
Old July 1st, 2004, 05:23 PM
gearco
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James T. Johnston, Jr.
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So you'll know what ECR is quoting for their 2.8 litre powerstroke motor installation, they told me about a month ago they'd do one for around $20,000. This is for a motor they claim won't do well with an automatic because the auto sapps too much power. Something's got to be wrong with this picture. Why would anyone spend this kind of money on a motor install that is a step down?
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  #35  
Old July 1st, 2004, 07:31 PM
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Eric W. Siepmann
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Damn! $8,500 from RDS complete turn key 300 tdi with all the ancil's as well. New R380 and perhaps fuel system and frame and you're good to go. And still have money in the bank!
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  #36  
Old July 1st, 2004, 09:05 PM
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Tyler
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Funny back in december I asked ECR about the 300 and the powerstroke and was quoted more than I payed for the truck for the 300 and that the powerstroke wasn't legal yet. They were in the process of getting it certified with the EPA.
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  #37  
Old July 1st, 2004, 09:09 PM
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Arthur Maravelis
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Since when is the 300 legal???
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  #38  
Old July 1st, 2004, 09:40 PM
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I guess the EPA has no issue with it. it sounded like the EPA was/is the stumbling block with getting the engines certified for the US. Really don't know as a desiel is a dream for me.
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  #39  
Old July 1st, 2004, 10:24 PM
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Ryan
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Technically the 300 TDI is not an EPA-approved engine. And it may never be as no manufacturer uses it in a US vehicle so the only drive for it would be an aftermarket conversion. And there's probably not enough demand to fund the cost of getting it approved. Does that mean you can't do the conversion? Well, it depends. Every local DMV office is different so you might breeze through the process or get shut down. When I did my diesel conversion, I was prepared with everything I would need to justify the conversion. I was actually somewhat disappointed to find out that the person working that particular day in that particular office didn't really care which engine I had in my truck so it was signed off almost sight unseen (but in my case I had everything to prove it was a legal conversion so I should have passed even if they did scrutinize it). I would recommend that you get a good understanding of what's required to register an engine re-power before you do it.

Did a little digging, and here's some info I received when I inquired with the California Air Resources Board about doing an engine change. This was CARB so your local agencies may vary somewhat from this but I think it mostly applies:

"Thank you for your message to the Air Resources Board (ARB) regarding motor vehicle engine changes. The following information is valid for any engine change done since March of 1984.

In order to be legal in California, you must follow the following three requirements when selecting an engine for your vehicle:

1. The engine must be of the same model year or newer than the vehicle.

2. The engine must be from the same certification (weight) category as the vehicle. For example truck and
motorcycle engines cannot be placed in cars, heavy duty truck engines cannot go into light duty trucks, etc.

3. Only California Certified engines may be used in California vehicles. US EPA (49 state), Direct Import
(greymarket), Used Japanese (non-USA) , marine, industrial, or competition only engines may not be used.

Since your vehicle is not California certified, but federally certified instead, you need to use a federally certified engine. All emissions control equipment must remain on that new engine, meaning that the vehicle will now need to have all the original emissions control equipment that came on an GM federal model vehicle for the 2000 model year.

IMPORTANT NOTE
Once the engine change is completed it must be inspected at a State of California Referee facility. The Referee will Smog Check the vehicle to the emissions requirements of the year of the installed engine. All equipment required for the installed engine must remain in place. This includes any transmission controls or electronics required for emissions. In cases where the model year of the installed engine cannot be determined, the vehicle will be checked to the newest year it was produced.

If you chose not to use original equipment, you may use any legal replacement parts or Executive Order (EO) modifications allowed for the newly installed engine."
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  #40  
Old July 2nd, 2004, 02:16 AM
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evilfij
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As far as the oil pan I would ahve to stick my head under a 540 or 740 (not easy I have a big head and they are low to the ground ) but the way the O3 RR pan works to me it looks like it would foul on the diff/driveshaft for sure.

FWIW this is an eyeball judgment nothing else.

Ron

Follow-up Post:

BTW as far as EPA etc. Series TITLE!!!!

pre 64 there was basically no laws, emmissions, seat belts, etc.
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