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  #1  
Old April 10th, 2005, 11:14 PM
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Charles Galpin
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Relay replacement help

I need some help identifying and locating compatable replacement relays for my '94 D90 with A/C.

Its a long story, but I was having trouble starting it after it had sat for some time and then had the distributor removed and reinserted At some point I manged to bind the start gear on the flywheel (i think) and I blew a relay.

I swapped a couple relays and got juice again, and promptly below it Yeah, yeah, i should have resolved the problem first.

Ok, so at this point I have forgotten which relays went where (or which are bad for that matter ). I assume I blew the starter relay, and then one of the other ones I cannabilized.

They are all yellow and come in two styles, one siemens and one tyco, with the same basic schematic on the side, but with different numbers on the schematic and different part numbers. There is no mention of amperage, just 12V. according to my manual I am dealing with the

Under the passenger dash/ A/C facia:
Main MFI relay module EF6
Fuel pump relay module EF8

In the Main fuse box area:
Lighting Relay module LS2
Starter relay module ST6

The two flavors I have are

siemans v23136-b4-x7 amr 2548, schematic has 1,2,3,5 numbers
tyco v23134-b52-x130 ywb 10027, schematic has 30,85,86,87 numbers

So, my questions are

1. Are these relays actually different?
1.a If yes, can someone tell me which are which and why please?

2. Were can I locate these (cheap)?

3. How can I test which are bad without trial and error?

I saw someone used thepartsbin.com and I found P2020-24499 which matches my tyco variant and thats marked as a fuel pump relay, but dont see anything that matches my siemans.

thanks
charles
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  #2  
Old April 11th, 2005, 01:12 AM
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Most relays I have seen have the 30, 85, 86, 87 layout for them..... in fact I have never come across the other labelling anywhere that I can remember.

I was able to pull up some info. The Tyco are 40amp relays, the rest of the details are regarding the mounting arrangement and pin style. (some have 2 #87 pins for things like foglights). I am guessing that the Siemans are the same aperage rating, just different mounting style.

#30 is the power feed, #87 is the power output
#86 activates the switching, #85 is the ground
If you remove/add power to the #86 terminal you should hear the relay clicking if it's good

I have no idea what #1,2,3,5 is on the siemans

-Hans
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  #3  
Old April 11th, 2005, 12:34 PM
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Thanks Hans!

So, just to clarify, you think all the yellow relays can use the "30, 85, 86, 87" ones then? I guess I should have mentioned they have identical pin layouts.

thanks
charles
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  #4  
Old April 11th, 2005, 01:41 PM
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Charles I'll check mine but I think the yellow is the same as the other. I know the 2 silver relays for the ECU and fuel have a diode in them, so they are kinda special.
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Old April 11th, 2005, 01:50 PM
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Mike, please do.

Just a little more info. On my '90, I have three relays "hanging" below the A/C unit. One is green (has the same "30, 85, 86, 87" numbering) and the other two were yellow. The lighting and starter relay in the fuse box area were both yellow.

I have an aftermarket fuel relay in the box still, that is silver

thanks
charles
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  #6  
Old April 11th, 2005, 09:17 PM
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OK just checked, I was using one of those yellow relays in place of a normal relay. So they are the same as far as I can tell.
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  #7  
Old April 11th, 2005, 09:52 PM
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Sweet! I might not be able to try them till tomorrow, but I have two of the "30, 85, 86, 87" coming home this evening. They were bloody expensive localy, so I'll stock up on a few spares from thepartsbin.com

Just for the record, the cross matching part numbers are

Bosch: P2020-24499
Borg Warner: R3024

charles
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Old April 12th, 2005, 01:18 AM
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Well, the always useful MegaSquirt forum may have answered this quandry.

One of the folks there had a problem where the main power to their computer fuse had blown. So, the power leaked back through the relays and into the system through the 'back-door' as it were. Those diodes in the fuel pump and ECU relays are probably there to prevent that type of situation.

You learn something new every day.

-Hans
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  #9  
Old April 12th, 2005, 07:56 AM
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Sorry if all didn't know, but yes Hans is right, Diodes only allow current flow in 1 direction, and relays without diodes can short (mostly from water and mud ask how I know) and current will flow from the input switched side, to the grounded side of the coil.
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Old April 12th, 2005, 08:03 AM
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Ok, then which relays should have the diode, and what model/part number if different from the ones I quoted above?

Does anyone have a clear breakdown of what relays belong where and how to source each kind, is all I really want to know

thanks
charles
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  #11  
Old April 12th, 2005, 08:18 AM
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The silver one's in a metal case have the diodes, and on my 90 there are only 2, fuel pump and ECU, they are mounted right by the ECU. All the other relays are of the same type (30 amp) with the exception of the few 40 amp relays you mentioned.
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Old April 12th, 2005, 08:28 AM
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Ok thanks. I'll be fine for now, and i I ever get this thing running, I'll see if I can tell which those two are by the wiring colors ( I have 3 by by the ECU), and get the silver kind for those.

thanks
charles
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  #13  
Old April 13th, 2005, 02:54 PM
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Ok, looking for advice on how to proceed here as things have gone from bad to worse.

Short summary - seemed to have bound the starter gear to the flywheel and blew a relay. Blew another before thinking to turn the engine over with a socket on the crankshaft. Did turn the engine over, overpaid for relays locally, and promptly blew *BOTH* new relays it seems.


Edit
: To be clear, when the relays are blown, i get no sign of life. With new relays, the instrument panel lights up and the fuel pump primes. This time as soon as I turned the key to the start position, it blew. So no click or engine crank, nothing...

So, how can I troubleshoot this? I need to determine what's blowing the relays (i believe i blew the main and fuel pump relays) and why?

thanks
charles
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  #14  
Old April 13th, 2005, 04:52 PM
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Disconect the wires from the starter, then measure resistance to ground on the starter. Also try starting it to see if the relay still gets shorted out with the starter disconnected. For now buy some cheap relays in place of the $$$ ones.
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Old April 13th, 2005, 05:04 PM
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Ok, will do. I guess I'd better make double sure the starter is still not jammed. Brand new starter btw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Hippert
Disconect the wires from the starter, then measure resistance to ground on the starter. Also try starting it to see if the relay still gets shorted out with the starter disconnected. For now buy some cheap relays in place of the $$$ ones.
I ordered some from thepartsbin.com for about $12 each iirc. Know of anything cheaper? Paperclips?

charles
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Old April 13th, 2005, 05:07 PM
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The relays at the autoparts store are about $5. How handy are you with a volt meter? You could measure the resistance across the load of the relay and disconect things until it went infinit.
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  #17  
Old April 13th, 2005, 05:17 PM
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Got a part #? I had to pay $25 locally.

I think I'm handy enough to do what you describe.
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  #18  
Old April 13th, 2005, 05:19 PM
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The relays were on the shelf with all the fog lamps and stuff, they are not the kind with diodes but they should work.
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Old April 13th, 2005, 05:26 PM
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LOL. That was supposed to read

I DONT think I'm handy enough to do what you describe.

Your suggesting with a good relay plugged in, measure the resistance across (which two pins I dont know), start disconnecting stuff (like the starter) and when it goes infinite, I've found my short?

I will have to take a closer look at the auto parts store.

charles
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  #20  
Old April 13th, 2005, 05:37 PM
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LOL, thats cool you want to measure from 87 to ground or pin 85, without the relay, juststick your meter in the socket.

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ttachmentid=85
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