PRC 6913 - 200tdi won't start - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old December 18th, 2012, 01:12 AM
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PRC 6913 - 200tdi won't start

So, my 200tdi started up fine this afternoon, but tonight wouldn't budge. I thought it was a flat battery, but the battery tested out at 12.40V

Dash lights come on at first, but after trying to start it the dash lights dim out almost completely. PRC 6913, the glow plug timer relay starts clattering if the ignition is left on. Clatters for temporarily and then quits. Dash lights come back on. Another try at starting and out the dash lights go.

Seems to me the relay is shot.

Just to make sure, I tried jumping the 90 with a fresh battery. No go.

Are these symptoms of a dead relay?
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  #2  
Old December 18th, 2012, 01:16 AM
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Sounds like the starter. If you really think it is the glow relay, pull it, but I can't see how that would cause those symtoms.

Just the starter to check.
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Old December 18th, 2012, 01:39 AM
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Removed the glow plug relay for now.

What is my best course of action for checking the starter? It's a tough piece to get to.

Do you imagine it is frozen since I am getting Zero effort out of it? The relays below the fuses scream whenever I attempt to start the truck.

Sorry, i should mention I get one big click from what I assume is the starter solenoid engaging?
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  #4  
Old December 19th, 2012, 09:43 PM
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Check The Engine Ground.
I think you are experiencing ground issues, but rather hard to tell from your description of what is happening.
Facts... we need the facts.
Take a jumper cable and clamp it to the (-) battery post and then to the engine.
Then crank away.
If it turns over, or better still starts, then you know it's a bad ground.

Also try describing your issue more in terms of what is and is not happening.
Something like, the light goes dim and THE ENGINE DOES NOT TURN OVER.
Or
The light goes dim and THE ENGINE SPINS, BUT DOES NOT START.

If the engine is not even turning over, then jump the engine to the (-) ground on the battery.
Next place a screw driver between the small spade on the solenoid (that had a white with red wire connected) over to the large battery starter lug (also on the solenoid). If the engine, then turns over and may start along the way, you're not getting power to the small spade.

Get yourself a wiring diagram and learn to trace it and then look at the glow plug relay and understand how supplying power to glow plus has nothing to do with the completely different circuit that supplies power to the starter solenoid that causes the starter pinion to move and starter motor to engage.

Hope this helps from afar cause I am not exactly sure what is happening from the description.
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  #5  
Old December 19th, 2012, 10:03 PM
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I've had a similar issue twice before on two different trucks. One was the grounding wire was loose. Other was a worn out ignition/blank spot on the ignition so when the key was turned it would just cut out as if you had turned the key to off and removed it but if you wiggled it the right way it would connect and work correctly. Seeing as your truck is 22 years old either could be the culprit.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 07:23 PM
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I now understand that the glow plug timer has nothing to do with the starter circuit.

I clean both the contacts on the starter to engine ground wire, as well as the battery to transmission ground contacts. Tried starting.

Engine and battery lights illuminate along with glow plug light. Once glow plug light goes off, turn key to start. Engine does NOT turn over. Click from solenoid but that is it. Relays whine. Battery and engine light dim out, and glow plug timer begins to clatter. Once i have let they key back to run, engine and battery lights attempt to re illuminate, but happens very slowly.

Cleaned contacts on solenoid. Tried screwdriver across battery lug and spade with white/red wire. Nothing. Maybe a tiny arc, but that is it.

Any other suggestions?

Maybe the battery can't handle the load? I tried jumping it the other day with my vw tdi. Will try again.

------ Follow up post added December 20th, 2012 04:24 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
I've had a similar issue twice before on two different trucks. One was the grounding wire was loose. Other was a worn out ignition/blank spot on the ignition so when the key was turned it would just cut out as if you had turned the key to off and removed it but if you wiggled it the right way it would connect and work correctly. Seeing as your truck is 22 years old either could be the culprit.
I don't think it is the ignition, never had any issue even remotely similar in the past, and every method of wiggling I try doesn't seem to make any difference.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBrands View Post
I don't think it is the ignition, never had any issue even remotely similar in the past, and every method of wiggling I try doesn't seem to make any difference.
Correct. From your description you just gave which is more clear my suggestions are not the problem.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 07:47 PM
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200 tdi starters were made by Valeo a French company and are prone to failure in my experience. Remove the starter and try making it work while on the ground with jumper cables. Not sure about a 1990 model but earlier trucks don't have a starter relay.

I have opened a couple of these up and freed up rusted brush holders etc and eeked a couple more weeks out of them but in the end always end up stuck somewhere roll starting the truck and replacing the starter in the end.
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  #9  
Old December 20th, 2012, 08:29 PM
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The glow plugs take a lot of power until it times out, might be why you were seeing the lights dim. I would pull the battery and have it tested just to make sure. If a battery is going to fail the cold temps can do it. It is easy to check. if it is OK then off to the starter as Doug mentions.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 130Tdi View Post
200 tdi starters were made by Valeo a French company and are prone to failure in my experience. Remove the starter and try making it work while on the ground with jumper cables. Not sure about a 1990 model but earlier trucks don't have a starter relay.

I have opened a couple of these up and freed up rusted brush holders etc and eeked a couple more weeks out of them but in the end always end up stuck somewhere roll starting the truck and replacing the starter in the end.
Pulled the starter to bench test. Hooked the positive lead from the battery to the upper terminal on the solenoid. Negative to the starter housing. Clamped a wire from the positive lead to the switched spade on the solenoid and I get nothing. I was getting a click when it was on the truck. Am I doing something wrong?

------ Follow up post added December 20th, 2012 05:48 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBrands View Post

Pulled the starter to bench test. Hooked the positive lead from the battery to the upper terminal on the solenoid. Negative to the starter housing. Clamped a wire from the positive lead to the switched spade on the solenoid and I get nothing. I was getting a click when it was on the truck. Am I doing something wrong?
Okay, so I better retract my previous statement. Looks like it might be the battery. It seems that the jumper cables I was using were not Doug their job. They have a pilot light to show if they are getting power, but it seems they don't actually deliver any. Pulled out a tiny old pair am they had the starter just a buzzing.

The original attempt at jumping is what has gotten me so confused. The faulty jumpers made me think the battery wasn't the issue. Will try joint it with the old cables and see how I get along.

Will report back!
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  #11  
Old December 20th, 2012, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBrands View Post
was using were not Doug their job.!

What the hell ! You even capitalized Doug so not a typo ?
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  #12  
Old December 20th, 2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 130Tdi View Post
What the hell ! You even capitalized Doug so not a typo ?
Autocorrect doing = Doug... This is what happens when you type on a phone...
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  #13  
Old December 20th, 2012, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 130Tdi View Post

What the hell ! You even capitalized Doug so not a typo ?
Lucky coincidence? Yeah, I was on my phone and didn't check the spelling.

Anyways, thanks for all the help. Fresh battery has solved the problem.

Goes to show that I had better check that my jumper cables are actually working properly before trying to start a dead vehicle. It would have saved me quite a bit of needless work.

Battery used to finally start the truck was something like 1150 cold cranking amps. Original battery in the 90 was 800 CCA.

Raises another question.

What size battery is recommended for a 200tdi?

I will see if I can find a thread on battery sizes for land rovers.
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  #14  
Old December 21st, 2012, 06:39 PM
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I thought Doug (ing) the job was driving through a green pond filled with cholera and typhoid fever and getting salamanders stuck inside everything including the starter.

David get yourself a real battery charger that shows voltage and battery condition and you won't feel silly with bad jumper cables... good luck and happy holidays!
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