POR-15 Rust Abatement - Defender Source
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Old September 24th, 2012, 04:57 PM
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POR-15 Rust Abatement

So, after owning my current 110 for nearly a year and having plenty of time to analyze what it needs I have decided to address some corrosion issues.

The frame was repaired pretty extensively along with new TD5 crossmember in 2007 along with tub supports and other things. Five years later and I want to address minor rust issues before they become bigger. The frame and everything around it is in pretty solid shape (we spent about 45 minutes going over every bit of metal with a tack hammer and only fond one soft spot where the frame rail connects to the rear crossmember)

I may waxoil at some later point, but for the purposes of his discussion I want to get some input on inplace sandblasting and treatment with POR-15.

I have a local shop who would be capable of removing the axles, springs, fuel tank, bump stops and other stuff to get pretty good access to mosty of the frame. I have a few questions all of which probably have endless outcomes/answers, but looking to hear what some people have to say (that actually did something similar).

1) how much time is usually involved in removing and replacing both axles and springs (spring perches left in place)? assuming competent mechanic in full shop with lift.

2) notwithstanding any metal work/patching, how many hours could you reasonably see somebody sandblasting away the corrosion (not down to bare metal) everywhere on the bits of frame, crossmembers and tub supports that are exposed? 20-30 hours? 30-40 hours?

I think question #1 would be easy for many of you to answer, I understand question #2 is difficult, but looking for educated stabs.

I'll sent pictures before and after, but I think 1 coat of spray POR-15 with 2-coats of satin black would do wonders rather than covering up minor corrosion with Waxoil like they do in the UK. Wouldn't it be great if we coudl drive a Defender into a giant vat of POR-15 and abate surface rust easily as that? obviously a silly proposition, but just looking for a middle of the road solution between Waxoil applications every year and a new frame in five years.

It's in great shape now, but trying to keep it that way because it's a slippery slope once you see the orange!
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  #2  
Old September 24th, 2012, 05:15 PM
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Not answering your question, but I have not found POR-15 to be that durable. I'm getting some rusty spots after two winters on items that were sandblasted and PORed.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 05:19 PM
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I am not sure why you would want to remove and blast them if you are going to por 15.

While perhaps the most miserable job in the world, attacking it with a 4.5in angle grinder and a wire wheel (I like the disc type not the cup type) will get off the vast majority of the rust and then you can POR 15 and primer and paint over that. I did that with a used frame I have (I skipped the POR 15 and used spray rust converter and then top coats) and it was a royal PTIA but it looks good and seems solid.

The other thing is that the frames rust from the inside out so you can't really POR 15 the outside and be comfortable. You have to waxoyl the inside too.

Honestly, to pull the tank, the axles, the suspension bump stops etc. I would think would take two days labor in and out and if you are doing that, basically you have half way done with a frame swap. Blasting seems to be hit or miss in my experience. Some people just suck and others are quick and cheap. I know it was a small forture to do the stuff JimC and I had done.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 05:39 PM
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Ron is onto it

From what I understand the POR-15 is a rust converter. I'm not sure if it needs rust to do its thing but if there is no rust because it's been blasted then you can skip that and just prime. If you can drop the tank and get in there with a wire wheel you will get the big flaky stuff then the POR-15 will do its job on what is left.

And then there's the inside-out issue as well...
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Old September 24th, 2012, 06:54 PM
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Ron is in his own florid way trying to tell you that you are in line for a new frame. You can delay this with rust remediation, but the inevitable is only a matter of time.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 09:25 PM
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You can dress up the outside of the frame but the inside is the key. they seem to rust from the inside out from what I have seen. On one of mine I used the POR-15 with a sprayer to get inside the frame.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpayne View Post
Ron is onto it

From what I understand the POR-15 is a rust converter.
No, it is not. It is a high solids polyurethane. Is coats and seals. It does not do anything to the rust itself.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 10:26 PM
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We have way more than 40hrs in my sons 110 frame and we are only up to the bulkhead outriggers. We have used up a couple of wire wheels and $120 of por 15 and the converter/prep spray. A smaller wheel on a die grinder works better than a larger wheel on a 4.5 inch grinder. Dont use black wax oil on the outside of the frame-the stuff is terrible
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  #9  
Old September 24th, 2012, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Ron is in his own florid way trying to tell you that you are in line for a new frame. You can delay this with rust remediation, but the inevitable is only a matter of time.
Yep, I agree.
if I do nothing, it will be okay for 3-5 years.
if I do some abatment, 5-8 years (who really knows though)
the frame was extensively repaired in 2007, so this is right around the 5-year mark.

I have no illusions about EVER solving the rust equation. I have a buddy with a full galvy frame and every other steel support, channel and fastener is completely smoked after 4 years living near the beach. Point is that even with a full galvy frame, there are issues that always need to be looked after.

Yes, I do realize that when you start talking about dropping axles and springs, we are flirting with a frame-swap time-wise. However, I'm willing to throw about $2,000 into this and wondering if it's unrealistic that anything at all could be accomplished for that. Would love to tackle myself, but with no lift and shop......

I'm also planning on coating the inside of the frame with used waste oil (don't ask me where) using Waxoil application tools. So the inside of the frame will be covered after the POR-15 and 2-coats of satin black are applied.

I'm hesitant to even consider a frame swap at the moment for a few reasons. Mostly becasue in all candor, the rust is NOT that bad. on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being a totally clapped out bog truck that wouldn't pass inspection and 10 being brand new), I'd give my frame a solid 6. I mean , it's not at all "crusty" or "soft", just seeing a little flaking where the ends of the metal is exposed and paint wears off (like where the outriggers flare out at teh bottoms etc.) Also, I truly love the way this thing is put together in terms of road handling, lack of noises and the bulkhead is perfect, so why go there yet. If it aint broke.......
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Old September 24th, 2012, 10:46 PM
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here are some pics from about 6 months ago. Nothing has really changed, but it shoudl give you guys an idea what I'm working with.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 10:57 PM
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Perhaps I misremembered the details from their website but this is what they say

"POR-15 is a high-tech, high performance rust-preventive coating designed for application directly on rusted or seasoned metal surfaces. It dries to an incredible rock-hard, non-porous finish that won't chip, crack, or peel, and it prevents rust from recurring by protecting metal from further exposure to moisture."

It works over rust and if it is completely clean metal then you need the prep product.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpayne View Post
Perhaps I misremembered the details from their website but this is what they say

"POR-15 is a high-tech, high performance rust-preventive coating designed for application directly on rusted or seasoned metal surfaces. It dries to an incredible rock-hard, non-porous finish that won't chip, crack, or peel, and it prevents rust from recurring by protecting metal from further exposure to moisture."

It works over rust and if it is completely clean metal then you need the prep product.

the frame is solid, but aint nothing "clean" about anything under a Defender....ever!
we do have to get rid of any risidual waxoil and other frame coatings from years back. I don't think blasting down to bare metal is appropriate or needed.

POR-15 is big money, but I took a totally-devastated floor pan of a E9 BMW coupe back to some legitimate service with POR-15. the stuff does what it promises.
Don't ever get it on your bare skin though. It impregnates the skin so bad you'll be waiting at least 4 weeks before it's all gone. The shit is like a tattoo!
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Old September 25th, 2012, 06:05 AM
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I've never used POR15, I have had good luck with Ospho rustoleum and waxoyl. My rust issues have been minimal for the mot part. Ospho is cheap and it goes a long way.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 08:15 AM
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I highly recommend Ospho as a pre-treatment. It turns iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate then you can top coat with whatever. Ospho is the consistency of water and can be easily sprayed inside the frame where rust has a tendency to form. I wouldn't go to the expence of removing axles to do the frame work. Concentrate on the outriggers and crossmembers that are the weak spots.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 08:19 AM
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Ive had great luck with por 15 on my CJ7. it was heavily surface rusted after 2 years up in CT with my sister in law. I treated frame, bumpers and other trouble areas and still holding strong a few years later. it needs some surface rust to bond too, so waiting for some to show on my 110 frame so I can treat mine, but down in NC it's going to take some time. Doing the frame inside is a legit concern though.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 08:41 AM
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I have used that rust converted in the past as a prep for the POR-15 and it works well. It does have the consistency of water and would settle in the crevasses where water (and rust) would hide.

I know POR-15 would be perfect for the few areas that are rough, but maybe it's overkill for some of the other areas.

Also, what type of satin black finish paint would you recommend for the top coats. I don't think "chassis paint" is necessary as we're already doing POR-15 for the 1st coat. The rock sliders will be painted at the same time.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 08:57 AM
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You might consider going with a rattle can for the sliders. That way it's pretty easy to touch up if you scratch them up.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn
I have used that rust converted in the past as a prep for the POR-15 and it works well. It does have the consistency of water and would settle in the crevasses where water (and rust) would hide.

I know POR-15 would be perfect for the few areas that are rough, but maybe it's overkill for some of the other areas.

Also, what type of satin black finish paint would you recommend for the top coats. I don't think "chassis paint" is necessary as we're already doing POR-15 for the 1st coat. The rock sliders will be painted at the same time.
You will want to paint over any areas of POR15 that are exposed to direct sunlight. As I recall in my researching for rust solutions, POR15 is not UV resistant. One of the reasons I chose Rust Bullet.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by d90xjay View Post
You will want to paint over any areas of POR15 that are exposed to direct sunlight. As I recall in my researching for rust solutions, POR15 is not UV resistant. One of the reasons I chose Rust Bullet.

100% correct. It turns chalky & powdery
Two coats of satin black are planned on top of POR-15
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Old September 25th, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
I have used that rust converted in the past as a prep for the POR-15 and it works well. It does have the consistency of water and would settle in the crevasses where water (and rust) would hide.

I know POR-15 would be perfect for the few areas that are rough, but maybe it's overkill for some of the other areas.

Also, what type of satin black finish paint would you recommend for the top coats. I don't think "chassis paint" is necessary as we're already doing POR-15 for the 1st coat. The rock sliders will be painted at the same time.
I recommend "epoxy" spray paint. Appliance epoxy is what worked best for me.

Nothing wrong with that frame that would make me want to do what you are doing. I would just spray waxoyl into the vunerable areas (crossmember, ourriggers, front frame horns etc.), wire wheel and treat the surface rust, and keep an eye on it.

Assuming you give it a car wash a few times in the winter, it will be good for a long while.

To your point about the guy with the galvanized frame and having everything else rust -- so true! You need to do cappings, bulkhead, shock towers, brackets etc. and do it right.
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