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  #21  
Old May 6th, 2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LRNAD90 View Post
Land Rover must have spent the extra money specing them for some reason?!? Well, that's my theory anyway. My preference would be to replace the sandwich adapter with a thermostatically controlled one, so the oil gets to go to the cooler when it needs to, and doesn't when there is no need. Now how effective the stock cooler is is also up for debate I guess, but..
A solution to an engineering problem is...more engineering! In order to keep the engine cooled under all test conditions, someone at Rover determined that the external oil cooler would be just the thing. This is great if you live in Saudi Arabia or haul a loaded trailer up steep inclines all day (even then not sure it's 100% needed). However, at some tipping point, the engineering that goes into adding to reliability and overall performance introduces weaknesses and points of failure that create the opposite effect; introducing LESS reliability. I'm sure there's a professorial term for that. Anyway, it has been shown well enough that you don't need the oil lines to the radiator. It is a point of failure waiting to let go, and when it does catastrophic destruction can occur. Fact.
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  #22  
Old May 6th, 2014, 06:58 PM
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^^. What Bill said. ^^^




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  #23  
Old May 6th, 2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
A solution to an engineering problem is...more engineering! In order to keep the engine cooled under all test conditions, someone at Rover determined that the external oil cooler would be just the thing. This is great if you live in Saudi Arabia or haul a loaded trailer up steep inclines all day (even then not sure it's 100% needed). However, at some tipping point, the engineering that goes into adding to reliability and overall performance introduces weaknesses and points of failure that create the opposite effect; introducing LESS reliability. I'm sure there's a professorial term for that. Anyway, it has been shown well enough that you don't need the oil lines to the radiator. It is a point of failure waiting to let go, and when it does catastrophic destruction can occur. Fact.
A cajun (coon ass as they call them in La) friend of mine told me

"the enemy of good is better".

Context was my Bertram offshore fishing boat but the principal is universal.
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  #24  
Old May 6th, 2014, 07:14 PM
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I look at oil cooler lines as a maintenance item. I replaced mine with Genuine parts, and will do so again in 5-8 years.
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  #25  
Old May 6th, 2014, 08:47 PM
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I look at oil cooler lines as a maintenance item. I replaced mine with Genuine parts, and will do so again in 5-8 years.
Wow. They still make them? Did they modify the layout?
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  #26  
Old May 6th, 2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
I look at oil cooler lines as a maintenance item. I replaced mine with Genuine parts, and will do so again in 5-8 years.
Why would you do that? Especially with two very straightforward and superior options available.
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  #27  
Old May 6th, 2014, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cellulararrest View Post
Why would you do that? Especially with two very straightforward and superior options available.
Because all hoses degrade over time. Those braided wire jacketed hoses are really only good for higher burst ratings and maybe abrasion resistance, though if you are picky about details the hose is to be thrown away and replaced on an aircraft if even one broken wire is detected.

I haven't sectioned a factory line, but if it has a teflon inner jacket as most oil resistant high pressure hoses do these days then there is nothing superior about the other options.

You will not see the stress cracking and dry rotting on the braided hose, so the chances of catching it before failure are greatly reduced
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  #28  
Old May 6th, 2014, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by robertf View Post
Because all hoses degrade over time. Those braided wire jacketed hoses are really only good for higher burst ratings and maybe abrasion resistance, though if you are picky about details the hose is to be thrown away and replaced on an aircraft if even one broken wire is detected.

I haven't sectioned a factory line, but if it has a teflon inner jacket as most oil resistant high pressure hoses do these days then there is nothing superior about the other options.

You will not see the stress cracking and dry rotting on the braided hose, so the chances of catching it before failure are greatly reduced
Sure, but they degrade faster when routed directly next to the RH side manifold. The alternate options reroute them.

Dunno why I opened my mouth as I run without them at all
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  #29  
Old May 6th, 2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Wow. They still make them? Did they modify the layout?
Still available through Land Rover and pretty cheap. I think I paid around $100 for mine. They are identical to the originals as far as I can tell.

------ Follow up post added May 6th, 2014 09:20 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellulararrest View Post
Why would you do that? Especially with two very straightforward and superior options available.
No real reason other than the fact I can get them through the dealership at which I work and have them the next day and they are cheap. Correct me if I'm wrong, which I may very well be, but Defenders weren't bursting into flames when they were under warranty. I can see the advantage to upgrading them, but I'm confident with factory replacement parts. If in a few years I have one fail, I'll bring up this post and eat my hat.
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  #30  
Old May 6th, 2014, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
No real reason other than the fact I can get them through the dealership at which I work and have them the next day and they are cheap. Correct me if I'm wrong, which I may very well be, but Defenders weren't bursting into flames when they were under warranty. I can see the advantage to upgrading them, but I'm confident with factory replacement parts. If in a few years I have one fail, I'll bring up this post and eat my hat.
I don't have any stories personally, but I'd put money on it having happened. Honestly it's not worth the risk, IMO. Especially when the problem is so easily completely solved.

That being said, the routing on the 97 GEMS engines isn't nearly as catastrophically fatal as 14CUX '94-'95.
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  #31  
Old May 6th, 2014, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cellulararrest View Post
Sure, but they degrade faster when routed directly next to the RH side manifold. The alternate options reroute them.

Dunno why I opened my mouth as I run without them at all

Good point about the routing. I'm only familiar with the serpentine belt lines and they seem to last around 200k/10 years. I'm good with that. If you must go with aerospace hose , go with stratoflex, my 401k will thank you
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  #32  
Old May 7th, 2014, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
A solution to an engineering problem is...more engineering! In order to keep the engine cooled under all test conditions, someone at Rover determined that the external oil cooler would be just the thing. This is great if you live in Saudi Arabia or haul a loaded trailer up steep inclines all day (even then not sure it's 100% needed).
So ideally, a thermostatically controlled set-up (cools when needed, doesn't when its not) would be the best solution given the description above, right? I'd assume Rover didn't consider it because of added cost?

I'm sure for 90% (or more) of the driving done, an oil cooler isn't necessary, but other than the added complexity and chance for failure you mention, I don't see the harm in having the added cooling capacity when needed. And adding the thermostat to the system addresses the possibility that running the oil too cool leads to problems as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
However, at some tipping point, the engineering that goes into adding to reliability and overall performance introduces weaknesses and points of failure that create the opposite effect; introducing LESS reliability. I'm sure there's a professorial term for that. Anyway, it has been shown well enough that you don't need the oil lines to the radiator. It is a point of failure waiting to let go, and when it does catastrophic destruction can occur. Fact.
Can't really argue this point, other than to say that is true of so many systems, even on our relatively simplistic NAS Defenders (Fuel Injection? A carb is much simpler and can get the job done almost as well in 90% of the situations, right?)..

P.S. - I'm not arguing that a NAS Defender NEEDS to have the Oil Cooler, or that guys that choose to run without it are necessarily going to regret it, just that if Rover spent the money to include it, an engineer saw value in it under some situations they felt the truck would see (Now if they had only taken the time to route the lines more intelligently)..

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  #33  
Old May 7th, 2014, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
I look at oil cooler lines as a maintenance item. I replaced mine with Genuine parts, and will do so again in 5-8 years.
Book shows a 2-hr job. Is that was shops charge? Ouch.
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  #34  
Old May 7th, 2014, 09:42 AM
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Book shows a 2-hr job. Is that was shops charge? Ouch.
2 hrs is not unreasonable in this instance as long as that includes the oil change. If it's additional then it's ridiculous.

The book says 3 hrs to change the headlights which is frankly insane.
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  #35  
Old May 7th, 2014, 10:06 AM
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Trailhead product is very good.
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  #36  
Old May 7th, 2014, 10:23 AM
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Book shows a 2-hr job. Is that was shops charge? Ouch.
Where is that labor time from? If that is a warranty time, you can expect a shop to charge 1.5-2x as many hours. Warranty times on older vehicles are usually higher than new ones, hence having to remove a body to replace an engine and only being paid 18 hrs. I think the last set of customer pay oil cooler lines I charged an hour to do. Honestly it only takes about 30 minutes to do the whole job...
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  #37  
Old May 7th, 2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Where is that labor time from? If that is a warranty time, you can expect a shop to charge 1.5-2x as many hours. Warranty times on older vehicles are usually higher than new ones, hence having to remove a body to replace an engine and only being paid 18 hrs. I think the last set of customer pay oil cooler lines I charged an hour to do. Honestly it only takes about 30 minutes to do the whole job...
I was thinking 30 minutes as well, but the PO beat me to it by installing the ECR lines in ~ 2007.
From the LR "Labor Operation Times" manual for the D-90 from 1994 onwards. Attached are the first few pages. I will email you the full document.
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  #38  
Old May 8th, 2014, 10:55 PM
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I don't think i've ever read anything about these engines running too cold...

I am personally of the mind that oil coolers help immensely for any engine. Splash lubrication draws heat away from pistons and valvetrain. It can only help to extend engine life. At the worst, it takes a little longer to warm up the engine.
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