Not happy with performance. What to really expect? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old March 19th, 2017, 07:00 PM
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Not happy with performance. What to really expect?

Since getting my truck I have done a lot of work to it, engine and other. It is a Defender 200TDI with 70k miles. Engine wise I have done

1. Timing belt (yes it is timed correctly)
2. Water pump, Radiator, Fan clutch
3. Head gasket / head bolts
4. Rebuilt injectors (fixed a smoking issue I was having)
5. Electric fuel pump, sedimenter, lift pump, lines
6. Cleaned intercooler
7. Valves adjusted perfect to .2mm
8. All new filters, bled, yadda yadda

Compression is 400psi on all 4, 12.5psi boost on the gauge. Added boost and EGT gauges. I have also added VDO speedo calibrated properly and verified with a phone app, added VDO water temp gauge wired properly with separate ground.

LT77 tranny, 1.4 T-case, 265/70 tires on Wolf wheels.

I have brush bar, rear ladder, tree guards, Mantec with full size spare, rear step bumper, surf racks, NAS SW roll cage. (Things that would affect aerodynamics)

This truck doesn't really want to go above 70mph. I was coming home from the beach today with 2 long boards on the roof, it was pretty windy, I felt I was killing it trying to maintain 65, temp 195ish water temps, EGT 1100-1250. Later this afternoon I was able to get it up to 75mph killing it on highway, no boards on roof, didn't feel safe continuing at those speeds, temp gauge was reading about 200 at that speed. EGT's were 1250.

I feel like the truck consumes a good amount of fuel. It doesn't smoke at all. I doubt the injection pump was ever messed with.

---------------------------------------------------

Reading about other peoples 200's on this forum I should be able to "cruise easily" at 75mph (not sure how thats possible with the engine screaming) through the mountains, upwards of 85mph (how the f*ck? No way am I taking this thing another 10mph if it would ever get there, even if it could, which it cant), with 800 degree cruising EGT's, 185 operating temps, getting 30mpg.

Mine will do 75mph at 1250 EGT's and 200 degree water temps killing it foot to the floor on a good day. It will cruise pretty easily at 65mph, 190-192ish temps, 900ish temps with no boards on the roof.

So what is the real story, are these numbers some internet unobtanium BS? Or is something still wrong here. Can/do people actually do 85mph in these trucks? Is cruising at 75 really 'no problem' (as in all the time not just with a tail wind killing it foot to the floor)? Does your truck really never get any warmer then the 190 degree T-stat temp? Is it because of all of the stuff bolted onto the outside of my truck?

I keep throwing money at this thing chasing some 200tdi inferiority complex with no luck. I have a bunch of time and money into it making everything right. I am a competent mechanic, everything is in top shape, engine is heathy.

I will keep throwing money at it if I really are not running how I should, but after all this, I feel like I might be getting led on.

I just ordered a bigger intercooler, however not expecting it to do much. Certainly not drop temps hundreds of degrees and give me another 10mph.

End rant.
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  #2  
Old March 19th, 2017, 07:38 PM
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Oscar
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111hp is 111hp, you would be lucky if yours is still producing that. I suspect most of us aren't.

I drove a 3.5 V8 (110 with a Holley carb) cross country at a steady 80mph regularly a few years back. Putting around the island at 60-80mph isn't really going to change much time wise for me so I'm happy cruising at 65ish.

The IC isn't going to do much, I have one on my VNT turbo set up.

How much more fuel can the stock IP respond with if you cranked the boost up? It should cover 1 bar, maybe 1.5?
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  #3  
Old March 19th, 2017, 08:17 PM
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My 200tdi with 1.222 tcase, 32" tires and early LT77 will max out at about 70mph-75mph on what I guess is level ground.
I have actually seen 80mph on my speedometer several times, but I think those were on a slight downhill grade.

Given that your gearing is about 15% less than mine, I can see how you're probably pushing the limit on the 200tdi at 80mph.
At that speed I assume you're pushing 3300-3500rpm.

The 200tdi makes a helluva noise at that RPM and I can only imagine the torque curve doesn't look all that great up there.

Quote:
So what is the real story, are these numbers some internet unobtanium BS?
I vote for internet unobtanium BS. The 200tdi put out 110hp when new.
Given a reasonable estimate of frontal area and drag coefficient,
110hp in a Defender probably puts the top speed at under 90mph.

I'd say just take a $30 ride on a local tuning shop dyno and get a pull.
It will stop all your worries about your engine.
You can afford it, you regularly spend an order of magnitude as much on the worrying alone
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  #4  
Old March 19th, 2017, 08:55 PM
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1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
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Are you on stock 200TDI gearing? That does not help a ton as you are starting to rev pretty high. Does the engine like to rev up to the limiter in lower gears?

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...tml#post761963

Any extra aero drag kills top speed. Lift, rack and so on. Keep in mind going from 75 to 85 requires 45% more power. There should be more. More boost and more fuel will help.
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  #5  
Old March 19th, 2017, 09:00 PM
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My 300Tdi WILL do 75 but it's not real happy up there - plus fuel consumption goes into the high teens if I try to maintain a speed over 70 mph ( roof rack and Maggiolina). It's a big flat fronted brick of a utility vehicle with not much sport to be found. Everybody is happier if we cruise at 65 mph.
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  #6  
Old March 19th, 2017, 09:35 PM
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My 12J + turbo (came that way, don't know how it happened) WILL do 70, but I've never put the pedal to the floor. 65 is easy and comfortable. With 285/75s Mud tires on it (2" lift) thats all I'm comfortable doing.

She is currently in for a 300tdi swap (and some more reasonable AT tires). I'm hoping the 300 gives me more than 10 comfortable mph.
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  #7  
Old March 19th, 2017, 10:35 PM
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200tdi with the 1.4 LT230 and 33"s

Anything past 70 on flat ground is pushing it for me. Happily cruises at 65 though, a bit noisy but I have zero soundproofing beyond the rubber floor mats. Don't believe I ever got 75+

I always heard from guys nearby they just swapped in the 1.2 from discos. I may go down to 32"s in the future.
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  #8  
Old March 19th, 2017, 11:06 PM
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Matthew
1983 110 200tdi 3 door soft top
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I fly on 35s, 1.4, lt77. Easy 70mph, pushing it @ 80.

Truck is tuned with boost pin, full width intercooler, timing advance, 3in exhaust and a tune. Smoke off the line and when accelerating above 45. Soft top truck with a 35in spare on the front and the sides up.

65mph egt on flat ground is 700-800


Its all about the tune and gearing but, the huge exhaust helps with the eggs. even with all of the above you are pushing a 200/300 to the limit over 65mph
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  #9  
Old March 20th, 2017, 06:14 AM
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91' D90 200TDI
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Thanks guys sorry for the rant, this helped me feel better. I feel like I keep chasing this unobtainable ideals

I was getting frustated seeing my water temp gauge rising upwards of 200 yesterday after redoing my entire cooling system, then not being able to go faster then 65 with the boards on the roof. Start doing searching seeing people saying they are doing 85mph, temp gauge never budges, this and that.

I will attempt to tune this thing once the intercooler gets here. I went for the $165 ebay 115mm special. Should be a good upgrade over the OEM.

Is anyone here able to get to 1250 EGT's with stock tune like I am? (floored in 5th gear highway approaching 70+ish mph)
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  #10  
Old March 20th, 2017, 06:45 AM
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don't bother tuning until you do a baseline dyno.

i can easily hit that egt if i have the accelerator maxed out.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
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  #11  
Old March 20th, 2017, 06:45 AM
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If egt is that high have you check the timing? Recently my 300tdi was getting those high temperatures and a quick fix was done over the timing. It was not out that much but just a little. With a dial gauge the plunger is now set to 1,60 instead of the official 1,45. Gives a little advance without knocking.

Good luck
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  #12  
Old March 20th, 2017, 07:59 AM
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Adam, thanks for the rant. I'm in the same boat. There's zero fun driving something with your foot to the floor while it screams like a psycho-bitch sewing machine. I do enjoy them between 0-60 but often find that is a limitation which is tough to live with on a daily basis. I drive mine 2-3x a week and then find if i take a day or two break I enjoy her more. Pretty silly.
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  #13  
Old March 20th, 2017, 08:36 AM
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Leave half an hour earlier and go 60.
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  #14  
Old March 20th, 2017, 08:38 AM
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91' D90 200TDI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
don't bother tuning until you do a baseline dyno.

i can easily hit that egt if i have the accelerator maxed out.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Ill be doing that soon. I have a buddy that has one at his shop I have been meaning to go visit. It is a Mustang brand dyno so the readings will be pretty low. Ill def do it before I install the intercooler

------ Follow up post added March 20th, 2017 07:39 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDNRover View Post
If egt is that high have you check the timing? Recently my 300tdi was getting those high temperatures and a quick fix was done over the timing. It was not out that much but just a little. With a dial gauge the plunger is now set to 1,60 instead of the official 1,45. Gives a little advance without knocking.

Good luck
I have not messed with that yet. I really wish I had someone to do it with me the first time. I can get the pin in with the flywheel mark centered. That's about it.

------ Follow up post added March 20th, 2017 07:43 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1of40 View Post
There's zero fun driving something with your foot to the floor while it screams like a psycho-bitch sewing machine.
Thank you. I just want to be able to drive in the middle lane on highway without having to beat on it, a gentle 70mph. I just went for a ride this morning, it wasn't too bad. No boards just me. Wind really makes a difference.
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  #15  
Old March 20th, 2017, 09:52 AM
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that's great on the dyno. the type of dyno is almost totally irrelevant. the only reason internet keyboard tuner trolls stress dyno brands so much is that they have no life and don't actually tune anything.

As long as the dyno is awd, it could be made by joe donut using paddlewheels, tap water, and a thermometer as a calorimeter. Don't get hung up about "being elite" on the dyno. A 200tdi makes less horsepower than a stock honda civic

nobody on here should ever criticise your choice of dyno. if they do, they are amongst the saddest of individuals!
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  #16  
Old March 20th, 2017, 09:59 AM
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A diesel is just like a gas engine. It must be tuned to run optimally. After doing a timing belt on any rover diesel, I have to adjust pump timing for optimal running. Hanging ones hat on "it is timed properly because I used the factory tools" is a misnomer. IMO that is a starting point. More often,have pulled trucks apart where the crank and pump lock properly but the cam is off by a tooth. Those trucks started easily, did not smoke, sounded fine, but ran like dogs. Even when things are all dead on, the engine often needs pump timing moved a couple mm one way or the other. The difference a couple mm makes is huge. Correct timing makes far more difference in performance and reducing egt's than additional intercooler ever will.

Fueling is again a huge issue in drivability. Thin/insufficient fueling equals an engine slow to make any boost which means zero torque and absolute crap drivability. Tdi's enjoy the reputation they have because they are quite torquey and fun to drive when properly set up. After 25 yrs (equivalent to 5 timing belt changes) many are slightly out of time and have gummed up pumps.
Many take the position that they want to stick with the very de-tuned factory settings on their pumps . The only way this makes sense is if you have a brand new injection pump and injectors, other wise the system should be tuned to compensate for the past 20+ years of wear, gum, filth.

My 200 tdi, lt77, 1.4 tcase 110 with full length roof rack, 4 inches of lift and 33's would run a gps indicated 75 mph highway cruise for hour after hour and faster for passing.

If your engine is revving highly sub 70 mph perhaps your gearing has been changed by a previous owner ?
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  #17  
Old March 20th, 2017, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
My 200 tdi, lt77, 1.4 tcase 110 with full length roof rack, 4 inches of lift and 33's would run a gps indicated 75 mph highway cruise for hour after hour and faster for passing.
Doug, I think your truck is literally the only 200tdi that has ever had that kind of performance, lol.
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  #18  
Old March 20th, 2017, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
My 200 tdi, lt77, 1.4 tcase 110 with full length roof rack, 4 inches of lift and 33's would run a gps indicated 75 mph highway cruise for hour after hour and faster for passing.
I think we need to setup a north east tuning day and get you up to NY. This is what I am trying to attain (only ill be doing 70 which should be even easier). I don't think my mechanical abilities will be able to get me their without some assistance from an expert such as yourself.

I have a dyno we can rent a decent price.

No my gearing has not been touch, at 70 I am doing under 3000, maybe around 2800. Soon I will be doing a little less with my new transmission.
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  #19  
Old March 20th, 2017, 10:31 AM
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So.....Lavender and I laugh/chat a lot about people who have this problem....while not a speed demon vehicle we are always pushing ours to 80MPH - they both sit at 70-75mph all day, on the flats. 60-70mph is quite easy and seems no worries at all. We have video and pics to prove

As Uncle Doug said it needs a diesel whisperer --- LIKE HIM --- he set mine up, and I love it.

mine - 200tdi 110
Lav - 300tdi 130
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Old March 20th, 2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
So.....Lavender and I laugh/chat a lot about people who have this problem....while not a speed demon vehicle we are always pushing ours to 80MPH - they both sit at 70-75mph all day, on the flats. 60-70mph is quite easy and seems no worries at all. We have video and pics to prove

As Uncle Doug said it needs a diesel whisperer --- LIKE HIM --- he set mine up, and I love it.

mine - 200tdi 110
Lav - 300tdi 130
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