Defender Source Forum banner

Not happy with performance. What to really expect?

28K views 234 replies 47 participants last post by  Defender2A 
#1 · (Edited)
Since getting my truck I have done a lot of work to it, engine and other. It is a Defender 200TDI with 70k miles. Engine wise I have done

1. Timing belt (yes it is timed correctly)
2. Water pump, Radiator, Fan clutch
3. Head gasket / head bolts
4. Rebuilt injectors (fixed a smoking issue I was having)
5. Electric fuel pump, sedimenter, lift pump, lines
6. Cleaned intercooler
7. Valves adjusted perfect to .2mm
8. All new filters, bled, yadda yadda

Compression is 400psi on all 4, 12.5psi boost on the gauge. Added boost and EGT gauges. I have also added VDO speedo calibrated properly and verified with a phone app, added VDO water temp gauge wired properly with separate ground.

LT77 tranny, 1.4 T-case, 265/70 tires on Wolf wheels.

I have brush bar, rear ladder, tree guards, Mantec with full size spare, rear step bumper, surf racks, NAS SW roll cage. (Things that would affect aerodynamics)

This truck doesn't really want to go above 70mph. I was coming home from the beach today with 2 long boards on the roof, it was pretty windy, I felt I was killing it trying to maintain 65, temp 195ish water temps, EGT 1100-1250. Later this afternoon I was able to get it up to 75mph killing it on highway, no boards on roof, didn't feel safe continuing at those speeds, temp gauge was reading about 200 at that speed. EGT's were 1250.

I feel like the truck consumes a good amount of fuel. It doesn't smoke at all. I doubt the injection pump was ever messed with.

---------------------------------------------------

Reading about other peoples 200's on this forum I should be able to "cruise easily" at 75mph (not sure how thats possible with the engine screaming) through the mountains, upwards of 85mph (how the f*ck? No way am I taking this thing another 10mph if it would ever get there, even if it could, which it cant), with 800 degree cruising EGT's, 185 operating temps, getting 30mpg.

Mine will do 75mph at 1250 EGT's and 200 degree water temps killing it foot to the floor on a good day. It will cruise pretty easily at 65mph, 190-192ish temps, 900ish temps with no boards on the roof.

So what is the real story, are these numbers some internet unobtanium BS? Or is something still wrong here. Can/do people actually do 85mph in these trucks? Is cruising at 75 really 'no problem' (as in all the time not just with a tail wind killing it foot to the floor)? Does your truck really never get any warmer then the 190 degree T-stat temp? Is it because of all of the stuff bolted onto the outside of my truck?

I keep throwing money at this thing chasing some 200tdi inferiority complex with no luck. I have a bunch of time and money into it making everything right. I am a competent mechanic, everything is in top shape, engine is heathy.

I will keep throwing money at it if I really are not running how I should, but after all this, I feel like I might be getting led on.

I just ordered a bigger intercooler, however not expecting it to do much. Certainly not drop temps hundreds of degrees and give me another 10mph.

End rant.
 
See less See more
#2 · (Edited)
111hp is 111hp, you would be lucky if yours is still producing that. I suspect most of us aren't.

I drove a 3.5 V8 (110 with a Holley carb) cross country at a steady 80mph regularly a few years back. Putting around the island at 60-80mph isn't really going to change much time wise for me so I'm happy cruising at 65ish.

The IC isn't going to do much, I have one on my VNT turbo set up.

How much more fuel can the stock IP respond with if you cranked the boost up? It should cover 1 bar, maybe 1.5?
 
#3 ·
My 200tdi with 1.222 tcase, 32" tires and early LT77 will max out at about 70mph-75mph on what I guess is level ground.
I have actually seen 80mph on my speedometer several times, but I think those were on a slight downhill grade.

Given that your gearing is about 15% less than mine, I can see how you're probably pushing the limit on the 200tdi at 80mph.
At that speed I assume you're pushing 3300-3500rpm.

The 200tdi makes a helluva noise at that RPM and I can only imagine the torque curve doesn't look all that great up there.

So what is the real story, are these numbers some internet unobtanium BS?
I vote for internet unobtanium BS. The 200tdi put out 110hp when new.
Given a reasonable estimate of frontal area and drag coefficient,
110hp in a Defender probably puts the top speed at under 90mph.

I'd say just take a $30 ride on a local tuning shop dyno and get a pull.
It will stop all your worries about your engine.
You can afford it, you regularly spend an order of magnitude as much on the worrying alone :)
 
#4 ·
#5 ·
My 300Tdi WILL do 75 but it's not real happy up there - plus fuel consumption goes into the high teens if I try to maintain a speed over 70 mph ( roof rack and Maggiolina). It's a big flat fronted brick of a utility vehicle with not much sport to be found. Everybody is happier if we cruise at 65 mph.
 
#6 ·
My 12J + turbo (came that way, don't know how it happened) WILL do 70, but I've never put the pedal to the floor. 65 is easy and comfortable. With 285/75s Mud tires on it (2" lift) thats all I'm comfortable doing.

She is currently in for a 300tdi swap (and some more reasonable AT tires). I'm hoping the 300 gives me more than 10 comfortable mph.
 
#7 ·
200tdi with the 1.4 LT230 and 33"s

Anything past 70 on flat ground is pushing it for me. Happily cruises at 65 though, a bit noisy but I have zero soundproofing beyond the rubber floor mats. Don't believe I ever got 75+

I always heard from guys nearby they just swapped in the 1.2 from discos. I may go down to 32"s in the future.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I fly on 35s, 1.4, lt77. Easy 70mph, pushing it @ 80.

Truck is tuned with boost pin, full width intercooler, timing advance, 3in exhaust and a tune. Smoke off the line and when accelerating above 45. Soft top truck with a 35in spare on the front and the sides up.

65mph egt on flat ground is 700-800


Its all about the tune and gearing but, the huge exhaust helps with the eggs. even with all of the above you are pushing a 200/300 to the limit over 65mph
 
#9 ·
Thanks guys sorry for the rant, this helped me feel better. I feel like I keep chasing this unobtainable ideals

I was getting frustated seeing my water temp gauge rising upwards of 200 yesterday after redoing my entire cooling system, then not being able to go faster then 65 with the boards on the roof. Start doing searching seeing people saying they are doing 85mph, temp gauge never budges, this and that.

I will attempt to tune this thing once the intercooler gets here. I went for the $165 ebay 115mm special. Should be a good upgrade over the OEM.

Is anyone here able to get to 1250 EGT's with stock tune like I am? (floored in 5th gear highway approaching 70+ish mph)
 
#14 · (Edited)
Ill be doing that soon. I have a buddy that has one at his shop I have been meaning to go visit. It is a Mustang brand dyno so the readings will be pretty low. Ill def do it before I install the intercooler

------ Follow up post added March 20th, 2017 07:39 AM ------

If egt is that high have you check the timing? Recently my 300tdi was getting those high temperatures and a quick fix was done over the timing. It was not out that much but just a little. With a dial gauge the plunger is now set to 1,60 instead of the official 1,45. Gives a little advance without knocking.

Good luck
I have not messed with that yet. I really wish I had someone to do it with me the first time. I can get the pin in with the flywheel mark centered. That's about it.

------ Follow up post added March 20th, 2017 07:43 AM ------

There's zero fun driving something with your foot to the floor while it screams like a psycho-bitch sewing machine.
Thank you. I just want to be able to drive in the middle lane on highway without having to beat on it, a gentle 70mph. I just went for a ride this morning, it wasn't too bad. No boards just me. Wind really makes a difference.
 
#15 · (Edited)
that's great on the dyno. the type of dyno is almost totally irrelevant. the only reason internet keyboard tuner trolls stress dyno brands so much is that they have no life and don't actually tune anything.

As long as the dyno is awd, it could be made by joe donut using paddlewheels, tap water, and a thermometer as a calorimeter. Don't get hung up about "being elite" on the dyno. A 200tdi makes less horsepower than a stock honda civic :)

nobody on here should ever criticise your choice of dyno. if they do, they are amongst the saddest of individuals!
 
#16 · (Edited)
A diesel is just like a gas engine. It must be tuned to run optimally. After doing a timing belt on any rover diesel, I have to adjust pump timing for optimal running. Hanging ones hat on "it is timed properly because I used the factory tools" is a misnomer. IMO that is a starting point. More often,have pulled trucks apart where the crank and pump lock properly but the cam is off by a tooth. Those trucks started easily, did not smoke, sounded fine, but ran like dogs. Even when things are all dead on, the engine often needs pump timing moved a couple mm one way or the other. The difference a couple mm makes is huge. Correct timing makes far more difference in performance and reducing egt's than additional intercooler ever will.

Fueling is again a huge issue in drivability. Thin/insufficient fueling equals an engine slow to make any boost which means zero torque and absolute crap drivability. Tdi's enjoy the reputation they have because they are quite torquey and fun to drive when properly set up. After 25 yrs (equivalent to 5 timing belt changes) many are slightly out of time and have gummed up pumps.
Many take the position that they want to stick with the very de-tuned factory settings on their pumps . The only way this makes sense is if you have a brand new injection pump and injectors, other wise the system should be tuned to compensate for the past 20+ years of wear, gum, filth.

My 200 tdi, lt77, 1.4 tcase 110 with full length roof rack, 4 inches of lift and 33's would run a gps indicated 75 mph highway cruise for hour after hour and faster for passing.

If your engine is revving highly sub 70 mph perhaps your gearing has been changed by a previous owner ?
 
#19 ·
So.....Lavender and I laugh/chat a lot about people who have this problem....while not a speed demon vehicle we are always pushing ours to 80MPH - they both sit at 70-75mph all day, on the flats. 60-70mph is quite easy and seems no worries at all. We have video and pics to prove :)

As Uncle Doug said it needs a diesel whisperer --- LIKE HIM --- he set mine up, and I love it.

mine - 200tdi 110
Lav - 300tdi 130
 
#24 ·
Some of the confusion does revolve around the 300TDI as well. The turbo on it is capable of higher boost and thus more power with all stock components. Push the boost up and add more fuel until you can at least reach 1350. At 1250 fueling is down a fair bit. You need to test at sustained full throttle to really see peak EGTs. In addition, the peak EGTs change with engine speed. Finding a really long hill that lets you accelerate very slowy helps get a better feeling for this.

As to the coolant temperature, 200 is probably about where the fan starts to kick in, so it is nothing to worry about.
 
#29 ·
For what its worth.. I have a 200tdi and was unhappy with the power it had, went through a new lift pump and had my injectors cleaned, still slow, then I found out my fuel pump was not functioning properly. It was a little expensive (for me) but after it was replaced and my defender was tuned it was like a different vehicle.

Before I was having trouble going up hills and being able to stay at a steady 55mph with the pedal to the floor. Now I am happy. It will cruise 60-65 on the HWY and no problems on hills any more.
 
#31 ·
You are ridiculously under geared. All of the "fast" Tdi's I have driven/ridden in are on much larger tires which keeps the engine in it's power band through higher speeds. 265/70R16 is a 30 inch tire. You should have a 1.2 tcase or at least 33s (to coincide with a proper tune, 15psi+ boost) and yes you do have to keep your foot in it.
 
#33 ·
With that combo you are turning about 3200rpm at 70 which is well within what the 200 will cruise at. Rev limiter is about 4000 I believe. You are getting scared and taking your foot out of it, or you're running out of power due to a bad tune. 12.5psi is low. Your EGT's are high for the performance you are describing also indicating not enough air moving through the engine. Coolant temp rises in response.

Read Doug's intel on tuning the pump and keep your foot in it. It will do what you want it to do but it wont do it with the gas pedal depressed half an inch like a modern car.

If it feels scary at 70 then you probably have worn steering/suspension components or a bad alignment.

Or, maybe you're just not a Defender guy.....
 
#35 · (Edited)
If it feels scary at 70 then you probably have worn steering/suspension components or a bad alignment.
I was talking about having to keep my foot to the floor sometimes to maintain 70 being "scary". All those parts are new. I would never do 85 in it. I don't plan on being buried in a corroded aluminum and steel coffin.

Or, maybe you're just not a Defender guy.....
The oil stains in my garage and driveway would say otherwise but OK... do I have to give my official 'Defender Guy' t-shirt and membership card back?
 
#37 ·
Do you plan to up the boost? More air will lower the egt's. Once you up the boost I suspect you can add a small amount of fuel and not be in higher egt's than you are getting now. As others have mentioned, going with higher gearing will bring your cruising speed up (obviously). I had no issue whatsoever cruising at 75 in my 200tdi 90. Full width intercooler, straight through 2.5 exhaust, fueling upped and around 18psi boost. 80 was easily obtainable, but it just gets loud. I ran 1.2 t case and 33's.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Yea I think so. This 115mm intercooler will be here Friday. Head gasket is fresh, it is the composite one, so a little leary, if it goes ill do the metal one. Ill probably go to 15-16ish, this turbo is so tiny I imagine it is just blowing hot air at some point. I am probably going to use a Hallman manual boost controller so I can easily adjust it. The bump in power might be just what I need to make my easy 70mph highway surfboards on roof goal possible. I have no issue with power around town or on the beach in low range. Plenty of grunt. I am going to try to dyno the truck on Friday to get a baseline. I'm just scared of screwing something up with the pump.
 
#41 · (Edited)
So what is the consensus on getting started with tuning? I see guides that say start with the main power adjuster behind the pump first, and others that stay just mess with the diaphragm and star wheel.

Adjusting the diaphragm and star wheel looks pretty simple.

The main fuel screw looks like a pain. I am scared I am going to touch it and never get it back to how it was just in case. Probably worrying about nothing.

Intercooler coming Friday, boost controller coming Saturday, and a baseline dyno appointment for Friday at 4pm.

I think a 20% boost in power will make me happy with this setup.
 
#42 ·
IMO, remove the stop on the bottom of the boost pin then turn the pin first. With the stock turbo, you really should not need any more than this. By the time the boost pin is in the highest fueling setting, you will be too high on the EGTs for sustained full throttle.

Then, if you are not happy with off boost smoke or response, play with the minimum stop on the boost pin and/or the star wheel.
 
#43 ·
Just mark and record all changes, it is so easy forget even just for a moment. You will not break any thing if done in small steps.

I have just had my disco out, can get 75 easily but low EGT's 850, so need a bit more fuel. Small steps.
 
#47 ·
Sure on the boost. The turbo can't do more than 18 and it will only do that with a lot of fueling. You will probably need more fueling to get to 15.

1250 is too low. The limit is 1328 for continuous use and there is a significant power difference between the two. This is the limit set by Garret. You can run there for the rest of time. There is no problem going over for short periods. Some people set it so they can never go over. Others set it so they can and just back off when it gets too high. It takes quite a while to get to the peak as the intercooler has to heat up and the temperatures work through the system.
 
#55 ·
Ah thanks. I read the whole thing last night. I love my research.

------ Follow up post added March 22nd, 2017 06:20 PM ------

From my testing the pin hits the bottom of the pump body perform it runs out of travel. The advice of old was that it is safe to remove the spacer.
Cool thanks. Ill take some measurements but I trust you. You know these trucks like the back of your hand.
 
#56 · (Edited)
You think I will have to adjust the main fuel screw? With changing the boost and intercooler it sounds like I might have to.

Adjust main fuel screw, get EGT to 1300ish

Then set diaphragm/pin to full, then back out as needed

Then adjust star wheel to get dialed best can

Then adjust smoke screw

Then set idle

You ever replace the flat head screws to hex or something? I have bad luck when I have to fiddle with flat heads so many times.

Ive been watching this Tasmanian guys youtube videos which is making me feel more comfortable with the location of things and nuances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZFaJFRxPi0
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top