Noise from engine--curse of my existence - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old June 18th, 2005, 03:21 PM
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Chris Davis
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Noise from engine--curse of my existence

This 4.6 will be the end of me! The original pleasure pain has turned into just pure pain. O.K. I have a rattling noise that begins about 3000 rpm. It sounds something like a loose metal something or other that starts rattling pretty loud and is directly porportional to engine rpm. On start up and low rpm, it does not seem to be evident. It is constant above 3000 rpm and once started, when you let off the throttle, it dies down until you can't hear it again about 2200rpm.

When using a stethoscope, it is loudest on the underside of the oil pan in the front, shallow area.

It is not the oil pump--that is now ruled out.

It might be a loose oil pickup rattling, but I am experiencing the noise only at high rpm and I would think it would be more constant.

It might be rod-knock, but I am hoping very much it is not because that will prove to be a pain in the ass, but at least solvable. I have not tried shorting all my plugs one at a time to see if this is it, but I will probably do that next.

Does this noise sound familiar to anyone?
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  #2  
Old June 18th, 2005, 04:09 PM
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Rod knocks are usually pretty dramatic "Clonking" sounds, nothing subtle about them. A shaky pickup screen might be a possibility, much easier to fix than a busted con-rod. Just unbolt the old one and bolt the new one on.

Possibly a worn timing chain and/or gears?

-Hans
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Old June 18th, 2005, 04:40 PM
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Bradlee Duncan
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I don't know if the oil pickups are the same on the 3.9 (but I assume they are very similar if not the same) and the pickup on one of our 3.9's was loose and was making noise once. Tightened it up and put some locktite on the threads and haven't had the noise since. The noise doesn't sound exactly like what you are explaining though.
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  #4  
Old June 18th, 2005, 09:14 PM
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Did you clearance the pan for the longer stroke of the 4.6?
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  #5  
Old June 18th, 2005, 11:10 PM
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Ron, I did not clearance the pan--I just reused my 3.9 pan. I thought it was a newer noise, though, and could it be hitting only at high revs? I would think the clearance issue would be a full time gig. I will be checking that out tomorrow. The timing chain and the oil pick up are my leanings (wishings) and since it seems that no matter what the oil pan will have to be dropped, I will start there and check for clearance issues first. I imagine that it will be obvious--scrapes on the pan, right? If you could lean your expertise on what to look for there, it would be helpful.

If I don't find anything in the pan or obvious signs with the rods, then the front cover is coming off, which is a drag because there are a lot of pain in the ass things that have to be done to do that. Between my Disco and the D90, I have removed front covers about a dozen times this year and I am very sick and tired of doing it. If the problem is not there, I am going to have to take some anti-psychotics and anti-depressants. Why can something so simple as a truck cause so much grief and pleasure? I need a shrink.
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Old June 18th, 2005, 11:39 PM
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Chris,
It may just be the beer and solvent enduced haze I am enjoying right now (I've just come in from the garage and my engine swap), but in looking at my 3.9 pan and the new 4.6 block I don't see a clearance issue because of the longer stroke. I would lean toward the oil pick up. But then what do I know, mines not running yet! If you previously thought it might be the distributor, and now you here it at the oil pan, maybe it is your timing chain. Is it new?
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Old June 19th, 2005, 01:38 AM
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Scrapes on the pan. Very slight. If you get under there and push up on the pan and it gets louder you have your issue.

Depending on how much right stuff you use it may hit it may not.
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  #8  
Old June 19th, 2005, 06:09 PM
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Andrew
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Sounds alot like a noise that a 2.5 NA diesel of mine made for a few months before it lost a rod cap.
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  #9  
Old June 20th, 2005, 12:33 AM
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Robert Dassler
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Chris,
I had exactly the same problem on a 4.6 swap that I did for a customer in a 1995 Disco. Ok at idle, gets louder as the rpm rises. You will probably find that the front crank throw is hitting the pan very slightly...maybe a very small shiny spot. I always put a "performance dimple" in the pan (torch, block of wood, big hammer). I also generally use a cork gasket on the pan for a bit more clearance. Gasket is still available...look up the part for a 1993 D110. I don't know the part number right off, but my bro-in-law and I just rebuilt his 4.6 on Friday and we fitted one. The invoice is at the shop or I would look it up.
Rob
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  #10  
Old June 20th, 2005, 08:38 AM
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Chris,

When you assembled the motor did you check the clearance on the main & rod bearings? Most motors that I have rebuilt in the past come with a plastiguage in the rebuild kit so that you can check the bearing clearance.

If not you might want to check them while you have the pan off or at least take a look at the bearings and see how they look. Just remember you will need a torque wrench and the torque specs when you check them.

http://www.plastigauge.com/
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  #11  
Old June 20th, 2005, 03:05 PM
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Yeah, I checked them. I actually had the crank reground and then used .010 bearings, checked everything, plastigauge, torque. I was anal. On one rod that was not quite right, I actually took it to a machine shop to get trued (and they checked the other 7 as well). That is what has got me so mad--there is just a jinx with this thing. I could only afford to do it with used bits, so that is part of it--trying to frankenstein this thing together. Overall, though I am bitching like a spoiled brat, I am very happy that I am learning so much about this stuff--it will make the next rebuild all the better and i enjoy knowing how to do these things. I have also met a lot of nice people that I otherwise would never have gotten to meet.

I will drop the pan this evening--I was not in the right frame of mind last weekend. If I have learned anything, it is do not do important stuff when angry.
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  #12  
Old June 21st, 2005, 12:23 AM
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I dropped the pan today and did not find anything remarkable. I checked my rod caps and the clearance and torques and things seemed ok. Nothing much on the pan, but there was not much clearance so it is possible that it was causing it through a sort of cavitation--can't really tell so I clearanced the pan anyways. I will put it back on tomorrow. I am not prepared to take off the front cover--it is just too much of a pain in the ass. Instead, if the noise is still there (and I think it will be), I will check the rockers and push rods. If not that, then I will take off the front cover. If not there, I will run the fn engine till it explodes. Well, maybe not, but I sure feel like it. I will report what I find.

It is also possible that it is pinging--there was some carbon buildup in cylinder 2 when I changed the head gaskets--that may have cause some issue (although stretching it). After the pan is back in, I will run it with that cylinder disconnected/shorted and see what happens. Maybe I will just add Mystery oil. Or pee on the tires while chanting. Or just pretend that the noise is not there at all. Actually, I think I will just turn up the stereo and break off the volume knob. URG!@
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  #13  
Old June 21st, 2005, 10:06 AM
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It took a lot of looking, but I have diagnosed the noise. For some reason, the cam that I am running (crane) is in too far and the lobes are hitting the adjacent lifters. At least I know what it is. Look at the photo--the lower left lifter you can really see the damage at the edges as well as on the side of the lobe.
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  #14  
Old June 21st, 2005, 11:52 AM
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Well then, that's..... unusual to say the least. I wonder where the extra length is coming from, did the timing gear work it's way loose possibly? I've heard of cams working their way OUT, but never going in too deep. Especially not something like 1/4", like it would take to do that.

Please keep me updated on this one, I'd like to know the cause so that I can help find the cure.

-Hans
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  #15  
Old June 21st, 2005, 12:22 PM
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Wow, that's wild....what is the p/n on the cam?
Rob
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Old June 21st, 2005, 02:50 PM
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the cam is the 900531. I am as puzzled as you all. I just ordered a Crower#50227 replacement. When I find the culprit, I will post it.
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  #17  
Old June 21st, 2005, 04:56 PM
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Yeah, I'd be really curious to find out what happened...I've put in several of the 900531's and never run into a problem.
Rob
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  #18  
Old June 22nd, 2005, 01:08 AM
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Yucky

Keep us posted.

Did you install the Gems camshaft keeper to that camshaft? It may not have been cut to have that fit against it.

JP
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 11:28 AM
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Chris Davis
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I used the camshaft keeper that came on the block, so yeah, I believe it was the Gems. I got the front cover off today and you know what I found? Absolutely nothing. Everything tight and in place. I am waiting for the new cam and will compare it to this one. It has me stumped.
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  #20  
Old June 22nd, 2005, 11:36 AM
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Wait a minute...can you post a picture of the camshaft keeper and cam nose as you have it installed? I'm curious because none of the 900531's I installed were machined for the keeper.
Rob
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