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  #81  
Old November 24th, 2013, 05:24 PM
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This is becoming a pita. Its back to not starting again. The past few days it would chug when I tried to start it but wouldn't catch, and then the battery died from trying so many times (its pretty cold here). I realized it was in 3rd so I charged the battery, went to start it in first, and the the starter motor kept spinning like it had no ground but all grounds are good.

I traced the ground on the ignition switch and realized it wasn't plugged into anything so I grounded it on the bulkhead ground and when i reconnected the battery there were sparks and i could smell burning.

Since this has started a few weeks ago, a new starter/solenoid has been put it, new starter relay, new ignition switch, and all grounds have been cleaned.

Any ideas?
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  #82  
Old November 24th, 2013, 05:56 PM
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This is indeed an "old" thread but it seems like there has been many different issues.
Let's go to the basics: are you running a 2.5L Diesel engine (that would be the stock engine for an '86 ex-mod)? Or anything different?
Do you have (and are you using) glow plugs on it? If you are using them, how long are you letting them heat up your engine cylinders?

I'm not sure I understand the comment on trying to start on 3rd vs 1st.... It might be worth you telling us a bit more about that.
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  #83  
Old November 24th, 2013, 06:02 PM
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Yes, its a stock 2.5 N/A diesel and an LT77. I tried to start it on Thursday and it would turn but wouldn't catch. I realized I had it in third and went to try the next day in first but the battery only had enough juice for one try and it came close to catching. I didn't think the 1st v 3rd would do much b/c the clutch was depressed but it either made a difference or was a coincidence.

I try to let the glow plugs warm up for 15 to 30 seconds, all four are in the engine.

What really threw me off was when the starter motor kept spinning today.
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  #84  
Old November 24th, 2013, 06:12 PM
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Yes, 3rd vs 1st would not make a difference. The right way is neutral and a foot on the brakes though... The only reason you depress the clutch is to relieve a little the starter motor (which then does not have only has the engine to turn).

Unless you have the electrical schematic for this truck, don't add connections you think should be there (not trying to be bad here, just stating a fact! ).
What troubleshooting steps did you take so far (for -this- issue, not what happened in the past few weeks since it worked before, there is no reason to think it is linked yet)?
Do you have fuel getting to the engine? Do all 4 glow plugs work? Etc.
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  #85  
Old November 24th, 2013, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonLand View Post
Yes, 3rd vs 1st would not make a difference. The right way is neutral and a foot on the brakes though... The only reason you depress the clutch is to relieve a little the starter motor (which then does not have only has the engine to turn).

Unless you have the electrical schematic for this truck, don't add connections you think should be there (not trying to be bad here, just stating a fact! ).
What troubleshooting steps did you take so far (for -this- issue, not what happened in the past few weeks since it worked before, there is no reason to think it is linked yet)?
Do you have fuel getting to the engine? Do all 4 glow plugs work? Etc.
Indeed, lesson learned, no hard feelings at all.

I have the schematic, and it just says it grounds...doesn't say where or how. I'm not sure how to troubleshoot this, or to tell if there is gas to the engine. I hear more than one click in the dash but thats all.

I temporarily connected power to the starter motor to see that it was good, it was. I temporarily bridged wires in the starter relay (starter turned) and gave it a new ground and all was good after that (supposedly).

I haven't checked the glow plugs but I did notice a big difference when I would try to start with vs. w/out heating them.

I don't know if fuel is getting to the engine, how could I check?
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  #86  
Old November 25th, 2013, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byrnecc View Post
Yes, its a stock 2.5 N/A diesel and an LT77. I tried to start it on Thursday and it would turn but wouldn't catch. I realized I had it in third and went to try the next day in first but the battery only had enough juice for one try and it came close to catching. I didn't think the 1st v 3rd would do much b/c the clutch was depressed but it either made a difference or was a coincidence.

I try to let the glow plugs warm up for 15 to 30 seconds, all four are in the engine.

What really threw me off was when the starter motor kept spinning today.
You should be in neutral when starting, less for the starter to spin round. Have the hand brake on.

Was the starter motor just spinning free or turning the engine?
Spinning free means the starter dog isn't engaging with the ring gear on the fly wheel.

How cold is it at the moment? I'd be aiming for 30 seconds on the glow plugs.
Temperature is dropping to 32f over night here at the moment and my 200tdi is a little sluggish starting.

To check for fuel loosen the injector pipes where they connect to the injectors in the cylinder head, fuel should leak out in spurts as you spin the engine over.
Also check there is a good contact for the electrical contact on the fuel stop solenoid, it needs +12v for the engine to run.
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  #87  
Old November 25th, 2013, 07:33 AM
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An alternative to cracking the injectors would be to remove the return link and attach a small piece of hose to the banjo and catch the fuel in some sort of container like a coffee can.

Did you obtain workshop manuals... I didn't read all the posts?
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  #88  
Old November 25th, 2013, 08:25 AM
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Just push start it. They can be a pain if they lose prime. If it is cold, they need a lot of glow.
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  #89  
Old November 25th, 2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeslandrover View Post
You should be in neutral when starting, less for the starter to spin round. Have the hand brake on.

Was the starter motor just spinning free or turning the engine?
Spinning free means the starter dog isn't engaging with the ring gear on the fly wheel.

How cold is it at the moment? I'd be aiming for 30 seconds on the glow plugs.
Temperature is dropping to 32f over night here at the moment and my 200tdi is a little sluggish starting.

To check for fuel loosen the injector pipes where they connect to the injectors in the cylinder head, fuel should leak out in spurts as you spin the engine over.
Also check there is a good contact for the electrical contact on the fuel stop solenoid, it needs +12v for the engine to run.
The engine started to catch but wouldn't turn, so I turned it off and took the key out, the starter was freely spinning. I'll have to check for fuel after the holidays but what is really worrying me is the freely spinning motor. Where is the fuel solenoid located?

------ Follow up post added November 25th, 2013 12:00 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Conor:
An alternative to cracking the injectors would be to remove the return link and attach a small piece of hose to the banjo and catch the fuel in some sort of container like a coffee can.

Did you obtain workshop manuals... I didn't read all the posts?
Yes I got some manuals, a workshop manual and a restoration manual but they're for civilian versions and I've been noticing some differences particularly with the electronics. I have the FFR Wiring diagram but the ground from the ignition switch is a mystery to me right now...I don't know where it is supposed to connect/ground.
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  #90  
Old November 25th, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byrnecc View Post
Where is the fuel solenoid located?
It's on the injection pump. on the side of the engine. There'll be a single wire coming out of it.
I think it's the red/yellow wire that's annoyingly behind the big black pipe i the photo I googled.
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  #91  
Old November 25th, 2013, 12:40 PM
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Awesome, pictures really help, half of my battle is finding things haha. If I turn the key once it should go on, correct?
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  #92  
Old November 25th, 2013, 12:41 PM
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number 9 on the second picture
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  #93  
Old November 25th, 2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byrnecc View Post
Awesome, pictures really help, half of my battle is finding things haha. If I turn the key once it should go on, correct?
With the ignition on if you pull the wire off you should hear the solenoid click and then click again as you reattach it.
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  #94  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:00 PM
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It started today a few times! Fuel stop solenoid is good also. Its in the 50s today opposed to the teens when I last tried so I am going to order new glow plugs.

However, problems did persist. I turned it off then on to see if there would be issues and it would click sometimes so I figured it was a bad ground again from the starter relay, I put in a temporary ground just to see if I was right and could get it started (a shop nearby made a ground in the dash which I'm skeptical about) and it started so I tried one more time, off then on, and on got a nasty spark on the positive lead on the ignition switch.

Since this thread is getting old here is whats going on with the ignition switch-

I discovered the ground was not grounded to anything so I grounded it alone to the earth on the bulkhead earth and tried to start and smelled smoke. It was recommended I just leave it disconnected b/c it had been starting before with it disconnected. Did the lack of the ground on the ignition switch cause the spark?
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  #95  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:09 PM
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So...I will interject here.

The ignition switch should not have a ground. If it has a ground wire, please do not connect it to anything.

The ignition switch should only have four wires going to it:

1. +12V hot
2. fuel stop solenoid
3. starter solenoid or relay (for those of you who keep saying that there is no starter relay on a diesel, if there isn't, there should be.)
4. Accessory +12V

when you turn the ignition to the "accessory" position, it should connect +12V hot to the Accessory +12V wire.

When you turn the ignition to the "run" position, it should energize the fuel stop solenoid.

When you turn the ignition to the "start" position, it should energize the starter solenoid or relay.

-------
In reality, the accessory wire is totally optional. The diesel really should only need three wires to start and run.
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  #96  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
So...I will interject here.

The ignition switch should not have a ground. If it has a ground wire, please do not connect it to anything.

The ignition switch should only have four wires going to it:

1. +12V hot
2. fuel stop solenoid
3. starter solenoid or relay (for those of you who keep saying that there is no starter relay on a diesel, if there isn't, there should be.)
4. Accessory +12V

when you turn the ignition to the "accessory" position, it should connect +12V hot to the Accessory +12V wire.

When you turn the ignition to the "run" position, it should energize the fuel stop solenoid.

When you turn the ignition to the "start" position, it should energize the starter solenoid or relay.

-------
In reality, the accessory wire is totally optional. The diesel really should only need three wires to start and run.
aaaand that is why I use this forum

misread the wiring diagram- feel like an idiot, glad I didn't do any damage....

When you say, accessory position, run, and start, I think that is one more position than my starter has? One turn gets accessories, turn it once more and thats the starting position. Are run and accessories the same for my ignition then?

Lastly my ignition switch has/had 6 wires- white/black (I think accessories), white (also accessories?), then brown (12v hot?), red/brown (glow plugs?), red/white (starter relay), and a black mystery wire which goes to nothing.

The black wire from the ignition switch has been disconnected for a few weeks now so that wouldn't have had anything to do with it sparking on the last try.
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  #97  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by byrnecc View Post
When you say, accessory position, run, and start, I think that is one more position than my starter has? One turn gets accessories, turn it once more and thats the starting position. Are run and accessories the same for my ignition then?
Yes, in this case, the accessory position and run position are the same.

In regards to the "ground" wire. You mention a ground wire to the starter relay. That's not the ground wire you have to be concerned about.

The ground wire that rob davis and others are talking about is a large-diameter braided copper wire that is bolted on one end to the engine block and the other to the vehicle's frame.

Without that ground wire (or if it is corroded), then starting behavior will be extremely erratic.

----------
Back to your new problem:

In my opinion, it sounds like you may have an issue with your ignition switch itself.

One thing to try is to take the wiring from the ignition switch and manually connect the fuel stop solenoid to +12V hot, and then manually start the truck by momentarily connecting the starter relay to +12V hot.

The engine should start quickly. You then stop the engine by disconnecting the fuel stop solenoid from +12V hot.

If that fails, then the issue may be with your starter solenoid itself.
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  #98  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Yes, in this case, the accessory position and run position are the same.

In regards to the "ground" wire. You mention a ground wire to the starter relay. That's not the ground wire you have to be concerned about.

The ground wire that rob davis and others are talking about is a large-diameter braided copper wire that is bolted on one end to the engine block and the other to the vehicle's frame.

Without that ground wire (or if it is corroded), then starting behavior will be extremely erratic.
The ground to the frame is good.

My wiring diagram (FFR EX MOD Diesel Wiring Diagram) shows that there is a ground from the starter relay, and also the brake relay which are next to each other behind the fuse box. The wires in my rover had been soldered together and my brake lights weren't working and the starting motor wasn't turning so I ran a separate wire to ground the starter relay and the car started.

What worries me is why did my ignition switch spark? Is this too broad of a problem to diagnose on the web...is there a short somewhere in my wiring harness?
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  #99  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:47 PM
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Also the ignition switch is new and the starter motor/solenoid.
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  #100  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byrnecc View Post
and the starting motor wasn't turning so I ran a separate wire to ground the starter relay and the car started.
OK, this is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byrnecc View Post
What worries me is why did my ignition switch spark?
The only reason the ignition switch would spark is if there was a high current draw. Based on the size of the spark, you can tell what that connection is. If it was a big spark, then it was +12V hot to ground. If the white/black or white wires are shorted, then you will get a huge spark. If the red/brown (glow plugs?) are connected without use of a glow plug relay, you will get a huge spark. The red/white (starter relay) wires should never spark. The black mystery wire we will just ignore for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byrnecc View Post
Is this too broad of a problem to diagnose on the web...is there a short somewhere in my wiring harness?
The best thing to do is to completely isolate the engine start/run components from the rest of the vehicle wiring.

My next step for you would be to disconnect the white/black, white, and red/brown wires from the ignition switch and see if it sparks again. Just completely disconnect everything but the fuel solenoid, 12V Hot, and the starter relay from the ignition switch.
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