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  #1  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 05:55 AM
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Unhappy Need Help For Bad Handling...(I mean BAD!)

I post this here too...
Well,it was time for me to experience some issues it seems...
I fitted my RR HD (red/white) springs a while ago
(I have yet to get longer dampers to match but...).
These gave my 90 a nice lift,even with my winch & bumper fitted.

I first had some bad annoying vibes until last Saturday when I finally fitted
Land Rover spring silencer plates (from Discovery # ANR 2938,IIRC)to the front.
The bad vibes are now gone (this is probably the cheapest alternative route instead of a DC shaft)
These isolators add barely 1 cm more of lift (uh-oh)...

The Cube is quiet as before,but!
I found myself scared to death while on tarmac,
as sometimes (I think when the pavement has some irregularities,corrugations,cracks,whatever)
the steering starts shaking as mad!
I mean sometimes it shakes so hard it you can literally feel the whole truck shaking!

I thought I was about to loose another wheel (happened,I'm paranoid now)) and stopped one side,
but wheeels were ok as the steering etc.

Now what?
I know with a lift the front roll center is raised because
and more "darting" about on the road in response to road irregularities...but this is too much!

Cranked radius arms jump into mind,but I can't afford
I have a couple of o.e. arms from a 1986 90 Diesel Turbo laying in the box I could sacrifice
and try to bend in a workshop...just need a precision press and someone who knows what to do...but...
...I don't really know...

So...thoughts?

The Cube handles fine and go straight if I leave the wheel,is quiet as before.
It's just this bloody shaking which worries me.

(SOB)

So far (I'm stuck at work at the mo) I was suggested to check:
*swivels preload (have to know how to yet)
*track rod and bushes (but I'm quite sure they're fine)
*steer alignment (will have it checked out ASAP)
*play in wheel bearings (I'm quite sure they're fine)

Thanks...
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  #2  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 07:19 AM
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check wheel balance and your UJ's,main cause of vibration
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  #3  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 09:35 AM
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If you are getting a bad wobble, you should also check out your pan hard rod bushes, your front radius arm bushes, and your tie rod ends on both the tie rod as well as the drag link.
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  #4  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 11:01 AM
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While searching I've found a lot of "potential" causes.
The list seems endless.
I'll start from the tires up.

I reckon I could have avoided to post this but I hope the forum police will forgive me...
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  #5  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 11:09 AM
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Does it seem to happen more at a certain speed? If so, I would check your panhard rod bushings as well as the hole that the bolt goes through to see if it is all tight in there or if there is any bind on the panhard rod bushing (mostly on the axle end). If so, I would say that's the culprit, if not, it could be any number of things.
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  #6  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 11:15 AM
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I'm quite sure the steering bits are as tight as the last time I checked them out.
I think it's too much lift mainly,even if it's only 2" and a half more.

It's really scary when it happens,but the truck drives straight and quiet as death 99% of the time.

This really worries me.

Rats.
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  #7  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 11:22 AM
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PANHARD ROD BUSHINGS!!!!!!
Climb under and have someone turn the wheel back and forth. You will see movement of the bolt in the bushing before the panhard starts to move. This is inexpensive part and 9 times out of 10 the problem. Start there before spending any money.
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  #8  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 02:52 PM
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I've seen people replace the panhard rod bushings and not the bolt. The bolt gets pitted after a while and even thought the bushings are new the bolt might be so worn that there is "play".

Personally I think it's your castor (wandering).
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  #9  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 03:38 PM
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Angry

Greased the U-joints,aired up tires which were probably a tad down,mud off,
moved front>rear and vice-versa,leads in place,steering linkages ok,wheel bearings play = 0.

Out for a test drive,the shakes went back and seemed worse than ever,I tried to fight the steering wheel but
I had to stop aside and gave another look under as I feared I was about to loose the axle.

The oncoming weekend I had planned to get back to the countryside (250Kms)
and I cannot trust my Rover!!!!

F**K!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know where to bang my head and can't think of anything but to remove the springs
and get back to the original setup (which drives me crazy),money apart,or just the isolators
(so the vibrations will come back)

Some buy ridiculous tall lifts and nothing happens,
me I'm the only idiot not able to keep 4 bloody Rover springs without risk of mass murdering!!!


There's a sticker o'mine on the Landy which says
"Patience My Ass,I'm Going To Kill Someone"
I think it explains well now...

F**K!!!!!!!!!!!
1 MILLION TIMES F**K!!!!!!!!!!!


I'll ask someone to help me check those rod bushing(s?),
but I fear it's just as John says,caster went scr*w*d up.
And I can't afford those cranked radius arms.

I have enough.
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  #10  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 06:01 PM
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I am telling you it's got to be the panhard rod bushings. I went throught the exact same thing you are going through. Death wobbles to the point of having to pull over. Then when I hit a pot hole or bump in the road all hell breaks loose. I spent tons of money and time on new shocks, springs alignment, new bearings preload adjustment when in the end it was the friggin panhard bushing and bolt. Take the panhard off and have a look or just do the bushings first beforre you spend anymore money. What can it hurt?
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  #11  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 06:13 PM
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Michele,
I think it's the panhard bushings too. Sometimes, those vibrations are so strong when driving that you can't really notice anything being loose when the truck is stationary. When we took ours apart, it revealed that the bolt hole in the panhard mount on the axle was actually made bigger by the bolt moving around and vibrating in there. We put a new bushing in there to see if that would fix it and we cranked the bolt down really tight. The wobble went away completely at first, but then it came back and so we took it apart again and that's when we noticed that the bolt hole had gotten bigger than the bolt so it was impossible to tighten it enough. One option is welding a steel plate with a new hole drilled in it (exactly the correct size of course) to the existing mounting point. That would keep the bolt from slopping around in the hole. I just haven't gotten around to doing that yet but I'm sure that's it because for that short time when the bolt was really tight, the wobbles were gone.

Another way to help the problem is to get an adjustable panhard rod, that will relieve some of the bind that the lift is causing. It's this binding that usually causes the panhard rod bushings, bolt, and mount to wear out quickly.
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  #12  
Old August 23rd, 2005, 06:21 PM
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The trailing arm bushings can also radically contribute to bad handling. I had two very worn trailing arm bushings, and cracks in the road/hard braking would make me super-nervous. If the trailing arm bushings are shot, the rear end will move around & cause the truck to steer to and fro. New bushings really firmed it up.

I recommend just replacing all the bushings. They are super-cheap compared to other work, are a known wear-item and are a good place to start.
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  #13  
Old August 24th, 2005, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
PANHARD ROD BUSHINGS!!!!!!
Climb under and have someone turn the wheel back and forth. You will see movement of the bolt in the bushing before the panhard starts to move
Sure it can't hurt,I'll check it out.

As I'm alone in these days,how should it feel "by touch"?
I mean I tried and played with all the joints I could reach by hand,
they move if I push but no apparent slack...do they have to be tight
enough not to move easily?


Thanks so far,I'm compiling a checklist as it goes


Uh,happy note,the garage is probably closed yet this week,so no spares...I'll call and see...

Ta again for the hints guys.


Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbass
Does it seem to happen more at a certain speed?
Uh yeah,I took note yesterday.
I'd say between 55/65 Kms/h,but I was out of town.
We made roughly 150 Kms in a row on the motorway while getting back home last Sat
without noticeable issues.

But,again,it only happens when road looks not perfectly paved.
This is just my eye feeling.

She runs straight and steady 99% of the time,I can even leave the wheel for a while and we go self centered.

Scary.


Crawl under this evening again.
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  #14  
Old August 24th, 2005, 06:54 AM
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Lightbulb

I think I've found what's wrong...just math.
I switched from this
NRC9447 D90 Front passenger side i.e. 14.80"
to this
NRC4304 RR HD Rear 17.71" red/white

17.71-
14.80=
____
2.91?!?!

WTF?!?
Almost a 3" lift instead of 2"!

I fear I went past the safety point???

Rear now:
NRC9448 D90 Rear 15.31"
so
17.71-
15.31=
____
2.4?!?!

Now add isolators...!
Rats...


Too much lift...
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  #15  
Old August 24th, 2005, 09:33 AM
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Lift has a way of making existing problems worse, but I stand by my original statement--change your bushings.
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  #16  
Old August 30th, 2005, 07:50 AM
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Thumbs up Solved!

Hey gang,
most of you pointed in the right direction.

Guess what?
Panhard rod bolts!


Bushes were fine,but both the bolts were bloody loosen!
I did a "pit stop" at my usual garage this morning
(monthly timing belt checkout)
and with me rocking the steering wheel
and the guy under the truck it was easy to see the play
(er,me,I saw nothing from the cab ).

Handling is back to normal now.
Well,normal as with +2" springs,
driveshafts working at wrong angles and half squeezed arms bushing...


...but I can live with it for a while!



Thanks you all!
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  #17  
Old July 7th, 2006, 08:20 AM
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how hard is it to replace trailing arm bushings?
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  #18  
Old July 7th, 2006, 08:53 AM
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buggiardo.... I think I was the only one that mentioned the bolt.... hahahaha I forgive you this time only because your team made it to the semi-finals!!!

Do you have an adjustable/extended panhard on the truck???

To replace the trailing arm bushings you need to have the old bushings (the ones by the axle) pressed out and the new ones pressed in. or if you plan on using polybushes then no need to press the new ones in (if they are a two piece design).
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  #19  
Old July 7th, 2006, 09:07 AM
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With that lift you have some geometry to solve, but the shaking you have is caused by swivel pre-loads that are too loose.

Check panhard too, but that is a simple test by having someone shake the truck while you fell the bushings. When it seems a mystery... its always the swivel pre-loads and its usually the last thing folks check.

When was the last time you did them? If you haven't and you have high miles I'll stake some beers that is the cause.

Oops... just read the rest of the thread and the cure was found. Looks like I owe someone some beer!
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