NAS 110 Stalls Climbing Hills - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 08:26 PM
R. Kurk
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Richard Kurk
1993 110 NAS #489
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NAS 110 Stalls Climbing Hills

My 93 NAS 110 with 52k miles has a stalling problem when climbing moderately steep inclines. Here is a basic description of the problem.



The 110 will be running fine but as it begins to climb a fairly steep section of road it will go flat and loose power. This has occurred at speeds above 40 in 5th or 4th gear.

As it begins to slow (rapidly with no power), if you quickly downshift (5th to 4th or 4th to 3rd ) and press the gas hard the engine responds normally and begins accelerating.

When it looses power/stalls the engine is under a load pulling the hill but in all cases the engine speed is 2000+ rpm and would normally pull the hill in that gear.

The problem does not happen on same stretch of road every time (frustrating for trouble shooting).

When the problem occurs it feels like the truck is running out of gas, but will recover if you downshift or pull over to the side of the road (engine stays running) and then pull back onto the road.



Some recent repair replacements items are listed below, but they appear to have had no effect on fixing this problem (but have fixed several other annoying issues).



Fuel filter

Stepper motor

Fuel regulator

Speed sensor

Distributor cap, rotor, spark wires, spark plugs

Ignition amplifier

New cats

New battery



Finally one other issue that may or may not be related. When the engine is cold in the morning (has not been run for 12+ hours) it is very slow to turn over. It takes 10 to 15 seconds of cranking before it finally fires and when it does is very weak for a couple of seconds as if it is struggling to stay-get running. Once warmed up or even after it sits for a few hours it turns over quickly and immediately.



I am guessing the problem may be a failing/weak fuel pump and resulting fuel starvation, but before spending the time and money to replace it I wanted to see if anyone had some tips, suggestions or ideas.



Thanks,



Rich Kurk
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  #2  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 09:48 PM
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Marc
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My best uneducated guess would be to check the fuel pump relay located at the fuse box first. When I took my D90 out of storage, I had similar problems and it boiled down to the relay being corroded/dirty. I replaced the plug, and the
problem went away. I also cleaned the coil connection, and that helped also.
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  #3  
Old June 24th, 2006, 12:18 PM
R. Kurk
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Richard Kurk
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I will try your suggestion of replacing the relay. I just got a new one, but was thinking of keeping as an emergency spare if the installed one completely fails (engine won't start-run at all). I will put it in and drive my favorite hill in the mountains above my house to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks,

Rich K.
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  #4  
Old June 24th, 2006, 02:25 PM
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Another guess would be the 02 sensors by the catalytic converters. I have been cheking out info on these (related to fuel mileage) and apparently since they are related to the ECU and fuel/air mixture, when they fail, idle would be very rough
and fuel/air delivery no correct..? Seems like cheaper alternatives to pulling the tank just yet.. did you change them when you replaced the cats?
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Old June 24th, 2006, 07:45 PM
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I did not replace the O2 sensors due to budget constraints (the cats went in the middle of a lot of other general work in progress and took up all the available '110 allowance money'). Additionally, there have not been any error codes generated giving a hint that the sensor(s) may be bad.

The O2 sensors are on my list of preventive maintance purchases. I have been treading a fine balance, the 110 only has 52k miles so many items are not worn out, however after 13 years a lot of items are aging and fading-dieing. The net result is I am fixing the broken and old and trying to anticipate what may be coming up next (I need a Defender psychic!).

If there are no really hot leads on a fix I may just go ahead and do the sensors. Still cheaper than pulling the tank out and the pump.

I am going to try the replacing the fuel pump relay tomorrow to see if that has an impact.

Thanks for your help.

Rich K.
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  #6  
Old June 24th, 2006, 09:47 PM
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Marc
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I hear you about budget considerations. 52K on the 110 is not many miles, however the condition really depends on it's maintenance history. My first guess would have been the fuel filter since it's acting like it's starving gas. My second would be the pump relay, then 02 sensors, then progressively go into the more complicated items ie; fuel pump etc..
Seems like you have covered a lot already. Since the cats were replaced and the old 02 sensors were used, you might check their connectors/wiring.. let us know when you sourced the problem and figured out the fix. (we amateurs need the info)
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  #7  
Old October 22nd, 2007, 03:48 PM
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Sterling M Archer
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Finally one other issue that may or may not be related. When the engine is cold in the morning (has not been run for 12+ hours) it is very slow to turn over. It takes 10 to 15 seconds of cranking before it finally fires and when it does is very weak for a couple of seconds as if it is struggling to stay-get running. Once warmed up or even after it sits for a few hours it turns over quickly and immediately.



I am guessing the problem may be a failing/weak fuel pump and resulting fuel starvation, but before spending the time and money to replace it I wanted to see if anyone had some tips, suggestions or ideas.



Thanks,



Rich Kurk[/QUOTE]

Anyone ever have this problem when starting their Defenders? My D110 starts fine, but then has the same problems as above. Did anyone ever solve this mystery???
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1995 NAS Defender 90 AA Yellow #2986: Current
2009 Range Rover Supercharged Black/Black: Current

1993 NAS Defender 110 #375/500: Sold
1995 NAS Defender 90 Soft Top Beluga Black #2556: Sold
1991 Range Rover Hunter Green: Sold
1997 NAS Defender 90 Station Wagon Portofino Red #128: Sold
1993 NAS Defender 110 Beluga Black #215/500: sold
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  #8  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 03:44 PM
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Richard Kurk
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Here is a recap since my first posting of last year. I ended up replacing the fuel pump which solved the main problem of 'stalling' on hills. When the pump was removed the person doing the work indicated that the pump input (strainer?) was quite dirty. So the pump may have been weak or failing and or clogged up.

However, the additional issue of the slow-to-turnover-when-cold remains. Oddly, the problem disappeared randomly (not related to any other fix, repair, or problem) for about two months and then just as oddly it returned. The slow-to-start problem remains as of today. Since the first posting I have additionally replaced the fuel pump (as stated above), fuel temp sensor, and an ignition amplifier relocation kit to get the amplifier off the distributor. So, a lot of the basic fuel and ignition components related to starting and general proper running are new.

The next thing to try is replacing the O2 sensors but I have not rushed to do this because outside of the slow-to-start-when-cold the truck runs fine and gets a consistent 16+ mpg cruising on the hiqhway.

I hope this update is of value.

Thanks.
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  #9  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 04:04 PM
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Sterling M Archer
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Thanks for the update...

Have you tried adjusting that set screw for the air idle? It is found under the anti tampor cap next to the throtle.

I took mine out Saturday and cleaned it. When I put the set screw back in I noticed that the threads were stripped. I got it back in, but I think its the last time it will come out. Since it is hard to turn I am adjusting it/fine tunning it, hopping to get it set right.
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1995 NAS Defender 90 AA Yellow #2986: Current
2009 Range Rover Supercharged Black/Black: Current

1993 NAS Defender 110 #375/500: Sold
1995 NAS Defender 90 Soft Top Beluga Black #2556: Sold
1991 Range Rover Hunter Green: Sold
1997 NAS Defender 90 Station Wagon Portofino Red #128: Sold
1993 NAS Defender 110 Beluga Black #215/500: sold
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  #10  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 04:18 PM
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Richard Kurk
1993 110 NAS #489
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I did try adjusting this about 18 months ago when I first purchased the truck thinking that it would solve a host of odd starting and running issues. From memory I followed the shop instructions but the net change in terms of position was minimal. I ended up pursuing replacement of a lot of other fuel, emission and ignition parts the sum of which fixed all but my slow-to-start-when-cold problem. It may be time, after all the other changes, just to re-check this and remove the screw completely just to double check its condition.

Thanks for the information.

Rich K.
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  #11  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 04:39 PM
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The odd thing that I can not figure out, is that when I clean any part around the intake or vacuum part with break cleaner it starts up and runs fine. I will spray some part thinking it is gummed up or carboned and start it after it has sat for 12 hours. The break cleaner has long since evaporated, so its not acting as starter fluid.
I installed all new vacuum hoses, T-piece, cleaned flame trap, and a new stepper motor too.
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1995 NAS Defender 90 AA Yellow #2986: Current
2009 Range Rover Supercharged Black/Black: Current

1993 NAS Defender 110 #375/500: Sold
1995 NAS Defender 90 Soft Top Beluga Black #2556: Sold
1991 Range Rover Hunter Green: Sold
1997 NAS Defender 90 Station Wagon Portofino Red #128: Sold
1993 NAS Defender 110 Beluga Black #215/500: sold
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  #12  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 04:46 PM
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Charles Galpin
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Just guessing, but check the intake tube (between the MAF and the intake) for any holes.

charles
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  #13  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 05:20 PM
R. Kurk
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Richard Kurk
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Charles ... I will do that as it is not something that I have checked at all.

Jon and Charles ... I am convinced that the problem has to do with something that can get stuck in an 'on-off' state. The reason is that the problem (at least with mine) magically stopped one day and then equally magically started again two months later. I am suspicious that it is a component (e.g. coolant temp sensor) that has a lot to do with the telling the computer that the engine is cold. The catch is that I have basically replaced all of this class of component and hate to begin re-doing/re-purchasing components again after only about 5k miles. Finally, Jon I share your feelings about gremlin type behavior. The truck seems possessed sometimes. Maybe I need a Defender exorcist!

Rich K.
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  #14  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 06:55 PM
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Andrew Najarian
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I may have misunderstood your first post. Are you saying that it turns over at a slow speed, or just turns over a long time before starting? If the latter, have you checked your fuel injectors? This sounds like it could easily be 1 or more leaking injectors that is flooding the engine when it is shut off. If the injector is gummed and not closing all the way it will allow fuel to enter the combustion chamber and will delay starting by causing a rich condition after prolonged time. You could try just tossing in some fuel injector cleaner but I would recommend removing them and either replacing them or having them bench tested and cleaned.
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  #15  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stmpede
I may have misunderstood your first post. Are you saying that it turns over at a slow speed, or just turns over a long time before starting? If the latter, have you checked your fuel injectors? This sounds like it could easily be 1 or more leaking injectors that is flooding the engine when it is shut off. If the injector is gummed and not closing all the way it will allow fuel to enter the combustion chamber and will delay starting by causing a rich condition after prolonged time. You could try just tossing in some fuel injector cleaner but I would recommend removing them and either replacing them or having them bench tested and cleaned.
Leaking fuel injectors were my first thought too Andrew. I had this problem on my 95 RRC. I put Seafoam cleaner in and the problem would get better, but then it would come back. Cleaner helps mitigate (and thus diagnose) the problem, but doesn't fix it.
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  #16  
Old October 23rd, 2007, 10:18 PM
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Chris Snyder
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I was having some strange cold start issues on my '91 Range Rover and it turned out to be the heaters on the O2 sensors. One of the wires was disconnected for some reason. Maybe check those?

My issue was just that it was running much too rich and rough for a few minutes after starting in the winter.
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  #17  
Old October 24th, 2007, 09:28 AM
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HI All, just a couple of quickies there is a strainer "sock" over the end of the pickup pipe in the fuel tank as you found out it was dirty, it is common for them to get sucked up into the feed pipe.

As for the slow starting have you tried removing and checking the earth connectors as they can cause lots of strange problems, I have found many electrical problems to be down to bad chassis earths.
next time it is slow to crank try feeling the earth leads, they should not be warm to the touch
if they are you have a poor ground.
I always fit my cars with additional earth cables that bridge the engine/gearbox mounts to ensure good earths

have fun

Gren
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  #18  
Old October 24th, 2007, 01:11 PM
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What about sticky valves???

The funny thing is, that the truck runs fine after 1 min., and only has trouble if it sat for more than 4 hours.
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1993 NAS Defender 110 #375/500: Sold
1995 NAS Defender 90 Soft Top Beluga Black #2556: Sold
1991 Range Rover Hunter Green: Sold
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1993 NAS Defender 110 Beluga Black #215/500: sold
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  #19  
Old October 24th, 2007, 05:16 PM
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Richard Kurk
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Lots of good suggestions. To clarify my slow to start problem. The starter motor runs but the engine will not start, it cranks for 10+ seconds then finally turns over. During the 10+ second cranking time there is no sputtering, half-starting, etc. Again, this only happens when the engine is cold. Once warmed up it starts right up in a second. I cannot catagorize the problem as serious becuase it always starts if you have just a little patience. The problem falls in the category of an annoyance but may indicate that something is wrong but hasn't evolved into major problem yet.

I am beginning to think that the next step is to replace the O2 sensors. The fuel injectors may be a problem, but I am not experiencing any other issues other than the slow to start when cold. The truck gets good mileage, runs strongly through the entire RPM range, and once warmed up starts right up even when the ambient temp is 100+. I may also pull the fuel lines and make sure they are clear and open.

There was a recent thread talking about when to replace O2 sensors. My 110 has 57k which is not a lot, but I am finding that there is an overall age multiplier on top the mileage that needs to be applied when deciding if something needs replacing (although this is very subjective formula).

Thanks.
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  #20  
Old October 24th, 2007, 05:17 PM
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If you leave the key on and let the fuel pump run for 10 or so seconds, does it start right away?
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