Defender Source Forum banner

More on diesel / manual conversions

7K views 37 replies 14 participants last post by  Overlander 
#1 ·
I'm ready to pull the trigger on a Tdi diesel conversion for my '97, but I sure would like to make it a manual while I'm at it! I have the diesel / manual set-up on my Series 3, and love it; however, the Series 3 goes away once the Defender modification is complete.

Previous posts asked if an auto to manual conversion was practical (mechanically, and money-wise), but I never caught a solid response.

In the end, I would like to have a late-model diesel / manual combo, that is as utterly simple and reliable as possible (no computer if I can avoid it). I see two ways of getting there:
1. Sell the '97 and start over with a '94 or '95 that is already a manual, or
2. Go for broke (literally!) and turn the '97 into what I actually want.
*The '97 is in decent shape, and is paid for, so I won't be starting in a hole.

Is a manual conversion on a '97 pratical? Any pitfalls?
Is option #1 or #2 a better bet in the long run?
Is there another course that will get me to the same end-state, without having to take out a second mortgage.

"Keep the Series" is an option, but I don't think it will garner much support on this forum!

Thanks,
Paul
 
See less See more
#2 ·
I am not sure what your state emissions system requires however here in Colorado I found that if you do a diesel conversion on the 97 it has to be fully OBDII complient, meaning with computer. If you go with the 94/95 you do not have to have any computer system.
From both a legal standpoint and a resale perspective you may want to sell and buy a 94/95.
My 2 cents.
Thanks
Dennis
 
#3 ·
Good catch.

Seems like I change residence between Virginia and South Carolina every several years. Both seem fairly liberal on their enforcement of modifications such as this - doesn't make it right; just doable. I'll have to research state laws some more. Are there any federal ones that apply?

I ran some more numbers. Either way this is going to be a pricey endeavor! Still worth the $$ since this is the vehicle I would like to drive to the grave!!
 
#5 ·
Delta95 said:
Good catch.

Seems like I change residence between Virginia and South Carolina every several years. Both seem fairly liberal on their enforcement of modifications such as this - doesn't make it right; just doable. I'll have to research state laws some more. Are there any federal ones that apply?
Don't you all have emmissions testing up there in NoVa? I think it depends on what county/city you are in, I would call an inspection station and ask them a bit about it first (do you check emmissions, how about a diesel?)

If you're looking for a '95 I've got one 2.5 Hours away, always wanted a '97.:) (Just a joke, I've got too much sunk in this one to turn around and put more money in "upgrading".)
 
#7 ·
Colorado does emissions on diesels, however there are no AWD chassis dynos in the state so once you do the conversion and they verify its integrity they immediately give you a waiver to not have to test it.
As I understand it, the challenge is getting the truck's title and registration from Gas to Diesel, through an inspection. Once you do that you are clear as long as the truck stays in Colorado. If you sell it to another state 80% of the work is done as the title already reads diesel. The only challenge would be the emissions testing rules for the state.
Dennis
 
#9 ·
"1. Sell the '97 and start over with a '94 or '95 that is already a manual"

This is 100% the answer. You can have my 94 for 17k, you can sell your 97 for at least 5k more than that. Everything is basically bolt up and you don't have to hack the interior of the 97 (although ECR will give you $800 for your auto center cubby assembly), deal with OBD II, or anything else really.

Personally, I would do it right and go to a 110 at the same time. New 300Tdi galvy frames to NAS spec are $3000.
 
#10 ·
For the costs you would spend more swapping from auto to 5 speed and sorting the wiring on the 97 vs. just buying a 94-95. The 97s sell for more money that 95s so you can likely profit a little on selling the 97 and starting with a 94-95. The conversion will be much easier and mean buying less parts (therefore cheaper). IMO

"We are in the process of putting together conversion kits for diesel swaps for NAS D90,D110,Disco 1 & Disco 2.

regds
Julian"

Beware there Julian... Rovers North and the rest of us got a huge smack down by the EPA some years back for offering kits for NAS Defenders. Each kit sold was going to carry a $20,000. fine due to EPA engine switching rules.
 
#12 ·
For road use in the USA it is not legal in most cases. Most shops, like mine, install Tdis for "off road use only". What the customer does once it leaves our door is up to them.
It is not legal to sell a kit in any way shape or form with a non-EPA approved engine. That is why you'll find no USA shops (or major shops) selling kits. The EPA has a thing called the "Engine Switching Fact Sheet
" and this is what they sent to us about 6-7 years ago when RN was selling the kits and we (and others) were listed as "authorized installers". We didn't get any fines or anything but did get a lot of harsh words, threats and RN was told to stop selling all non-EPA certified engine conversion kits, and they did.
So "by the book"... No, you can not remove your engine and install one not certified for road use by the EPA.
In the real world... Shops do it as "off road only" and no one in the USA sells kits due to the EPA issues.
As a DIY guy.. if your state laws allow you to get away with converting to diesel and not having to worry about tests and OBDII... go for it.
Serach the web on the EPAs "Engine Switching Fact Sheet" and you'll get more hard data. Its been a long time and I don't recall all the details. I do remember that the newer the car the more issues there were. So offering kits for a D2 or soemthing is going to land some serious trouble. That is one reason we do mainly 1993-1995 diesel swaps as 1996 is a cut off year for some issues. That is also the main reaosn we don't offer Disco swaps, as that was a major "fine getter" and was the reason we only did the one Discotech project and no other Disco diesels.

As a DIY install don't worry about it, but whoever Julian is that is going to try and make a big splash selling kits in the USA, they will for sure draw EPA attention. The EPA won't hunt down an individual, but they will hunt down a company... but then again I've seen a ton of UK companies go after the US market before they understood all the stupid US rules, and none have made it here long term. Lets hope Julian does more research and makes it.
 
#13 ·
"So "by the book"... No, you can not remove your engine and install one not certified for road use by the EPA."

Isn't TD5 EPA compliant due to some EU US cross over reg.?

I personally do not care as I don't go more than 5k a year, so once I pass once, I never have to do it again.
 
#14 ·
Our laws suck...
http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf

Follow-up Post:

Let's get a rollcall. who has converted to diesel and has been through their DOT inspection. What was your experience and/or issues? Don't forget to disclose your state.

Mike,
For those converted 93' 110's, any comments to share on how any of your customers got registered/titled as a diesel?
 
#15 ·
Agreed 100%

If you took all this stuff "by the book" you couldn't do anything, but people remove their cats, swap engines, install Hi-Po parts all the time. I just put a super charger on my Mustang. I bet in some rule book somewhere that is illegal too. Screw'm.

Did you know that now in Maine you can not fit larger rims to your car unless it was factory offered that way? Stupid. Not that is applies to Rovers, but those Hummer H2 guys that wanted 22's are bummin. :)

Check your state laws to make sure you can register and inspect the thing... F the rest of it. IMO.

I do feel bad for people who are going to try and sell kits here though. Get ready for the EPA smack down like RN got.

Follow-up Post:

Overlander said:
Our laws suck...
http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf

Follow-up Post:

Let's get a rollcall. who has converted to diesel and has been through their DOT inspection. What was your experience and/or issues? Don't forget to disclose your state.

Mike,
For those converted 93' 110's, any comments to share on how any of your customers got registered/titled as a diesel?
The titles don't change. The title is just ownership paperwork. Personally I am not anal enough to need my title to say "diesel". I just want my engine bay to have a diesel.
As for registartions:
Some states you just tell them your gas engine blew up and you installed a diesel (customer did that in MA). Some states could care less (ME, MT, etc). Some states are total in a panic and won't let you alter anything. Just depends on where you live.

When we convert a 110 to diesel for a customer they are warned before we begin to check their state exhaust and reg. laws to make sure they will still be able to drive their rigs. In some cases the customers have to walk away from the conversion, eventhough they want it, as they would not be able to register. Some find ways around it.. it is up to the buyer.

I think this link is old, but it has some good info. on what states require.
http://ncvecs.colostate.edu/ncvecs.docs/Reciprocity.htm
 
#16 ·
Thanks Mike. I have the same attitude as you-I could care less what the title says (the less the better IMO). I just want the diesel under the bonnet.

I'm in NC, and before I ordered my diesel from M&D, I called the NCDOT about it, and asked them what I need to know about converting to diesel. The inspection office told me to just bring it down, and they'll make a note. It's relevant only because the emission laws here are very different for diesels. in NC, a diesel of any year is exempt from emissions compliance and inspections.

My concern is a) when I drive my conversion to the inspection station, that I get the classic "who told you that! well that's not the way it is", or the b) "well, this is the exception to the rule". I'm sure if I called the DOT 5 times, I would get 5 answers, and that scares the hell out of me.
 
#17 ·
Just thinking a bit further...if a Defender is coverted to a diesel and is then classified as a "off road vehicle" wound't there be issuese with the insurance company if there was an accident and would they be covering a V8 or a diesel. It's obviously a lot more than just dropping in a new engine when you are talking costs. From what I gather to have a shop do this type of conversion it doubles the monies invested into the vehicle. I too am very interested in having this swap done at some point. I know how corporate America works and if there is going to be federal and insurnace issues I would have to think more seriously about it. I live in Michigan and there are no emission testing and vehicle inspecting...so that one good aspect. Mike thanks for all of your professional output, it really helps. I'd really like to see your shop sometime.

All the best,
 
#18 ·
Defender13 said:
Just thinking a bit further...if a Defender is coverted to a diesel and is then classified as a "off road vehicle" wound't there be issuese with the insurance company if there was an accident and would they be covering a V8 or a diesel. It's obviously a lot more than just dropping in a new engine when you are talking costs. From what I gather to have a shop do this type of conversion it doubles the monies invested into the vehicle. I too am very interested in having this swap done at some point. I know how corporate America works and if there is going to be federal and insurnace issues I would have to think more seriously about it. I live in Michigan and there are no emission testing and vehicle inspecting...so that one good aspect. Mike thanks for all of your professional output, it really helps. I'd really like to see your shop sometime.

All the best,
Insurance compnay = rip off in the Defender world. Just look into agreed value insurance somehow and don't worry about it. It would still be a road vehicle, not an "off road only" vehicle.

I have found the more information you give people the more laws they can find to block what you want to do. Call your DMV and tell them, "I'm buying a Land Rover and it is a diesel, how do I register that?" They'll walk you through the process.
I think people get into trouble when they say," I have a Land Rover that originally came with a EFI V8 but I lifted it 3" and put on 35" tires, and now I want to install a non-EPA approved diesel and change my title so that it says diesel and get expemt from exhaust test, how do I do that?"

Yeah...ok...
 
#19 ·
Well, my diesel arrives into port this week, so my dangerous jouney has begun. I'll report what happens to me once complete. If anyone has any experience to share, let's hear it.

When I get to the inspection station, I'm going to answer only what's asked in the fewest words possible, and volunteer nothing! after that, i'll never has an emissions inspection again.
 
#21 ·
Correct me if I'm wrong Ron, but there exists no direct-enforcement mechanism between the EPA and a private individual. The federal government can directly regulate the behavior of businesses under the unbrella of interstate commerce, but individuals are entirely subject to the laws and regulations of their individual states.

Just because a federal agency produces policy, individual states are not obligated to enforce it per se (of course there might be federal dollars attached to voluntary compliance!), but instead they are free to regulate activities as they like within their borders.

Personally, I applied with my state and filed a "Change of Motive Power" statement, my title and registration now state that my truck is diesel-powered. Converting a vehicle to diesel is entirely within the laws of my state and there is a mechanism in place to legitmize the documents. There is no emissions testing in my area, so its a complete non-issue. I'm not performing this service for profit, so EPA policy, in effect, does not apply to me and I am 100% legitimate.

Unless my comprehension of civics is skewed, thats the final word. I'd be curious to hear if Ron or anyone else with law degree has a different point of view.
 
#22 · (Edited)
JimC said:
Correct me if I'm wrong Ron, but there exists no direct-enforcement mechanism between the EPA and a private individual. The federal government can directly regulate the behavior of businesses under the unbrella of interstate commerce, but individuals are entirely subject to the laws and regulations of their individual states.

Just because a federal agency produces policy, individual states are not obligated to enforce it per se (of course there might be federal dollars attached to voluntary compliance!), but instead they are free to regulate activities as they like within their borders.

Personally, I applied with my state and filed a "Change of Motive Power" statement, my title and registration now state that my truck is diesel-powered. Converting a vehicle to diesel is entirely within the laws of my state and there is a mechanism in place to legitmize the documents. There is no emissions testing in my area, so its a complete non-issue. I'm not performing this service for profit, so EPA policy, in effect, does not apply to me and I am 100% legitimate.

Unless my comprehension of civics is skewed, thats the final word. I'd be curious to hear if Ron or anyone else with law degree has a different point of view.
Although I total agree with you. If you go "by the book" the installation of a non-EPA approved engine into a road going US vehicle is not legal and the Fed laws superceed your state law (don't they?). Maine is an easy state too, no problem with diesels, but that does not get you/me past the Fedral laws of the EPA, even if our states are easy. I don't agree with it, but I think it is true. I didn't see anything in that EPA engine switching fact sheet that said it had to be a company or for profit. It just said "It is illegal to..." not "It is illegal for any company to..."

As for Rons statement about Series rigs...
In my opinion there is a world of difference between the VIN swapping BS that goes on than re-powering your existing, NHTSA certifed vehicle USA spec. That is a HUGE leap in logic that I can't follow, but I don't want to go down the road on that topic. People will justify ANYTHING to get the Defender they want and that is OK. It just means more for me to potentially work on down the road.

To each his own though. If I followed every law my Mustang would have to be one stock (no blower), my 90 could not have 35s, my Dune Buggy would be an illegal abomination, my motorcycle would need to be impounded, my 66 Mustang would ahve to go back to small wheels instead of the 17s it is running, etc. You'd have to be nuts to listen to any of this BS. If you state allows diesel swaps with their exhaust tests... go for it. If they don't... move. :)
 
#23 · (Edited)
dnewman9 said:
Colorado does emissions on diesels, however there are no AWD chassis dynos in the state so once you do the conversion and they verify its integrity they immediately give you a waiver to not have to test it.
As I understand it, the challenge is getting the truck's title and registration from Gas to Diesel, through an inspection. Once you do that you are clear as long as the truck stays in Colorado. If you sell it to another state 80% of the work is done as the title already reads diesel. The only challenge would be the emissions testing rules for the state.
Dennis

I am about to register my Disco in AZ after a re-power. I will be writing that up once it gets done (this weekend I hope). I am going to see if I can get a picture of the guys face when he pops the hood....it is still an auto trans though...
 
#24 ·
I am not advocating VIN swapping. Clearly illegal. Quite the contrary, given the amount of work than many people here put into their trucks, it is not hard to just start buying pieces from a bunch of different vehicles (including the donor pre 68) and come out with something that has the parts from 5 or 10 trucks that looks like whatever spec defender you want. This has been done, and, all things considered, seems to be more legal from a federal standpoint than a Tdi repower of a 90s defender. From a state perspective it might be a kit car, it might need to be inspected when rebuilt, but it should be legal. Look at the hot rod scene. You can build an entire 67-69 camero, 32 ford, AC cobra, or 57 chevy from parts. This is the way the defender world should go as well. Get one company to import the drivetrain, another to sell a new frame, and another to sell the bodies. Done right you could do a complete build in a week or two. I mean has anyone looked into how superformance or any of the Cobra manufacturers are doing it? It seems like it could be doable, especially as a "kit" and especially with a donor series truck and a new frame. This would get you around the feds, and then you are left with the states who will let pretty much anything fly, especially with a 67 and earlier title.

Follow-up Post:

JimC, under the Supreme Court's most recent precedent, quilting bees and pot luck suppers can be regulated under the guise of interstate commerce.
 
#25 ·
Just FYI in my never-ending-battle with the DOT to try and get new Defenders into the US (legally) the Superformance issue came up once. I mentioned taking an engine out of a 110 and importing it along the lines of how Superformance or Noble can import a complete car (minus engine) and that is OK, but a 110 minus its engine and gearbox is not.
The ruling on that from Coleman Sachs at the DOT was that the Superformance "kit" had "never been" a car. It had never had an engine installed and therefore was not yet a "car" and that a Defender that was "built" and then had the engine removed fell under a whole different set of rules as it had been a car, and anything that had been a car could then never go backwards to be classed as a kit or partial build.
Crazy I know, but that was the DOTs ruling.

Also the DOT has ruled that if you change a certain number of things on the car it is no longer what it was. This is total BS and basically just up to whoever wants to say what. A few years back a placed called Harland Rover in Utah was taking late model Defenders and putting Series VINs on them. The DOT busted them and you can research the case on line in the DOT data-base (freedom of information act). Harland claimed that the vehicles were old 1960s cars and they had restored them with late model parts. When you read some of the letters from the DOT to Harland Rover it becomes clear that the DOT said that Harland had changed so much of the vehicle that it was no longer a 1960s Rover and that they would have to surrender the old VINs and certify the cars as the model year that they were imported and meet all the regs for that year.

So who draws the line? Is the bulkhead the key part? Is the frame the key part?? What makes a Series II "become" a Defender when you mix and match parts.
According to the DOT it is the wheelbase and the firewall.

So according to them a Series IIA 109 with a V8, 5 speed, coil chassis etc is OK as log as it is 109" and has a Series firewall.
However a SIIA 109 built with a 110 chassis and a SIII firewall would not be legal.
Its such BS.

How many 1933 Fords out there have even one piece from a 1933 Ford? Not many I bet.

So how do you register a crate Camaro without buying a junker to get the VIN and paperwork??

I build Dune Buggies but they aren't "kits" they are the 1970s VW that we use to build them.

For more "by the book" BS, in most states, including Maine, if you change the frame of the vehicle you must surrender the original VIN and go through a the process the re-certify and get an assigned VIN. That is nuts and no one does it. Most states classify the frame as the key part. Even if you put a galv. frame under your old 88 (a replacement part)... most states would "by the book" want to take your VIN away.

Its all BS and you can back talk your way into, or out of, any part of it depending on what you want to try and justify.
Just have fun and forget about it.
:)
 
#26 ·
I have dealt with replacement frames on wrecked vehicles in PA and there was a simple form to fill out and the trooper came over and looked at the new frame. Some states will restamp the new frame with the old VIN. In New York with my SII 88 all I had to do is provide pictures.

"The ruling on that from Coleman Sachs at the DOT was that the Superformance "kit" had "never been" a car. It had never had an engine installed and therefore was not yet a "car" and that a Defender that was "built" and then had the engine removed fell under a whole different set of rules as it had been a car, and anything that had been a car could then never go backwards to be classed as a kit or partial build."

Top notch loophole. Have a company contract with rover (or someone else like say brazil) to sell you complete Defenders minus the drivetrain, no title, just a kit. Have buyer purchase and install drivetrain out of whatever they want domestically, RRC etc.. Install. Superformance does not have airbags etc etc. Clearly it does not meet 2006 spec. or with their GT40 any road specs. Figure out how superformance registers its cars and copy that process. New defender without the cost of a resto on a 40k plus 93 NAS 110. Someone needs to do the infrstructure to import the bodies.

"So how do you register a crate Camaro without buying a junker to get the VIN and paperwork??"

Many states have a provision which allows the registration of "kit cars." Basically you get the thing inspected and they issue you a VIN and title for what it looks like it is. So you buy a kit camero (or more likely a 32 ford) you bring it in and you get a title that says 32 ford or 32 ford kit car.

So what we need is someone to fund a superformance Defender. Even if rover charged full price for a new defender minus the drivetrain (I doubt they would, plus the ROW and CKD kits are cheap), with a RRC/disco drivetrains as inexpensive as they are you would be rolling for basically the cost of new.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top