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  #1  
Old March 5th, 2007, 03:23 PM
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Andrew Clarke
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MileMarker hydraulic winch purchase & setup

Hi. After pulling my dad's tractor out of the snow again today, I decided I need to put a winch higher on my priority list. I've decided that I really do want a hydraulic winch, and I guess MileMarker is pretty much the only game in town. Would a 10.5k lb winch be enough or would I be better off going up to a 12k lb model? I guess the 12klb model isn't much heavier with the hydraulics, but OTOH I've been reading up on all the different setup options for the hydraulic winches on a Defender and I'm not sure what I'd be doing to capacity/line speed by going to a larger capacity winch.

I have a 200tdi 110 with the stock bumper from 1986. I could fabricate a winch mount, and maybe that's the best option, but what other bumpers for this truck fit these winches?

If I run a hydraulic winch off the stock PS pump, will it work sufficiently, or just not at all? I mean, I expect it would be very slow and have some capacity loss, but I just wonder if it would work for a "phase I" or if I'd just have to go directly to a secondary pump or a larger PS pump.

Where's a good place to get one of these for a good price? I'm in Canada so bonus points would be awarded to someone providing me a Canadian source ;-) I just called a local distributor and they wanted C$1611 for the 10,500lb kit, which is hard to compare with the US$750 or so I've seen on some web sites. For that price difference I'll have it shipped to my Buffaly NY post box. The local people also didn't know a thing about the winches.

Well, if anyone has any good input, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
- Andrew.
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  #2  
Old March 5th, 2007, 05:43 PM
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Neil Steinhagen
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I too wanted to go the hydraulic route. It would be less weight on the front end, not require me to add parallel batteries, and be able to pull all day long. The problems I ran into was sourcing a bumper, deciding on adding a dedicated power steering pump to my 3.9L off of the A/C pulley, and then plumbing it. I asked advice from a friend of mine who is also a rover mechanic from across the atlantic and he talked me into a Husky 10 with parallel batteries. Enough to pull a house down and will pull all day long as well. Also, at least on my 3.9L, the power steering pump is rated far below what is needed to make your MM operate at peak performance. I believe this is also the case for the 200 tdi.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 06:23 PM
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Hans Haase
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I have one currently, though the winch needs some repair. Never use it much though, I just don't have the time to go off-road much and it's not like there are many tough trails in suburbia. Sigh. I honestly don't know who made the bumper it's mounted on, but it's a heck of a big sucker for sure.

The stock power steering pump is definitely too small, and I wouldn't recommend it. You also can't just swap it for a bigger one, as you'll blow the seals out on the steering box. The issue is both slower speed and less pulling power coming from the lower pressure pump.

One option would be using a dedicated power steering pump on the other side of the engine, though you won't have the room if you have air conditioning. With this method, you can use a more powerfull (and more common) pump such as those from GM. IIRC there were folks making bracket kits a couple years ago, but I haven't looked into it recently.

Another choice would be a PTO mounted pump, I am not sure if GreatBasinRovers is offering them or not but they planned to a couple years ago. Not a cheap option, but a very good one.
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  #4  
Old March 5th, 2007, 07:18 PM
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I'm sure Rockware would make a bumper to fit them.
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Old March 6th, 2007, 04:34 AM
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Dennis Lynch
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I called a guy about a Mile Marker hydraulic and was told not to because of my truck's PS pump. He said he would sell me one, but I would most likely not be happy with it. Good Luck
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Old March 6th, 2007, 11:03 AM
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With that engine, I would suggest mounting a dedicated pump from where the air con compressor mounts on the right hand side. Talk to Milemarker about a suggested pump. I think they suggest ones from Chevy trucks. You can then get a rebuilt pump cheap at any auto parts store.

To drive it, you need to get the 3 groove crank pulley which can be purchased new in the UK for around $20 (just bought one myself).

Follow-up Post:

OK, I lied. I just checked and the correct crank pulley is ERR3093 and cost me 27 UKP. This has 3 grooves (water pump/alternator, air con, PS pump).
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  #7  
Old March 6th, 2007, 11:26 AM
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Andrew Clarke
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Cool, thanks everyone for your resonses. I'm not terribly mechanical, so maybe after you're done laughing you can tell me about this. If I add a second PS pump, what's that doing when it's not pumping hydraulics for my winch? I mean, does it add any inefficiency to my engine running? Is it always pumping hydraulic fluid around and costing me 1/2 hp all the time, or is there some sort of clutch that disengages it when it's not needed? If so, how does the winch signal the pump that it needs to engage and turn on?

Thanks,
- Andrew.

P.S. for Red90: Do you have a MileMarker winch? If so, did you buy it locally in Calgary or online? I'm just wondering about a good place to source one in Canada. Thanks!
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Old March 6th, 2007, 01:25 PM
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No clutch, the milemarkers use solenoid valves to engage the winch. With the solenoid off, the fluid just recirculates with no pressure. The drag would be the same as any power steering pump when you are not trying to steer.

Picture of typical hydraulics

No, I have an 8274. A great winch and you can find them cheap used. I think I paid $300 plus maybe $100 in parts to rebuild it.

I would try National4WD, but I doubt you'll beat US pricing. There are not really any "good" deals on pricing for general 4WD parts in Canada that I have seen.

Some good stuff here from a UK winch mod place. They make specific Land Rover kits, but for you it would make more sense to use a domestic pump.
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  #9  
Old March 6th, 2007, 04:01 PM
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J. Michael McCaig
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I have a Ramsey hydraulic winch on my 110. It is run off of an aux pump mounted on the engine with dual belts and an electric clutch like an A/C unit. Nothern sells a pump very similar to the one I have. The Hydro oil reserve tank is mounted under the seat. There is enough oil that the winch can be used all day without getting hot. I have a small hand throttle mounted next to the grill so I can very the engine spend when I'm outside using the winch.
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  #10  
Old March 6th, 2007, 09:10 PM
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Trevor K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRover
I have a Ramsey hydraulic winch on my 110. It is run off of an aux pump mounted on the engine with dual belts and an electric clutch like an A/C unit. Nothern sells a pump very similar to the one I have. The Hydro oil reserve tank is mounted under the seat. There is enough oil that the winch can be used all day without getting hot. I have a small hand throttle mounted next to the grill so I can very the engine spend when I'm outside using the winch.
hmmm... remote throttle control very interesting... but scary if one of your passengers(dogs) accidently bumps the car into gear(assuming auto, which i don't have, this suggestion is now filed under "things i might do").
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  #11  
Old March 7th, 2007, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aclarke
Hi. After pulling my dad's tractor out of the snow again today, I decided I need to put a winch higher on my priority list. I've decided that I really do want a hydraulic winch, and I guess MileMarker is pretty much the only game in town. Would a 10.5k lb winch be enough or would I be better off going up to a 12k lb model? I guess the 12klb model isn't much heavier with the hydraulics, but OTOH I've been reading up on all the different setup options for the hydraulic winches on a Defender and I'm not sure what I'd be doing to capacity/line speed by going to a larger capacity winch.

I have a 200tdi 110 with the stock bumper from 1986. I could fabricate a winch mount, and maybe that's the best option, but what other bumpers for this truck fit these winches?

If I run a hydraulic winch off the stock PS pump, will it work sufficiently, or just not at all? I mean, I expect it would be very slow and have some capacity loss, but I just wonder if it would work for a "phase I" or if I'd just have to go directly to a secondary pump or a larger PS pump.

Where's a good place to get one of these for a good price? I'm in Canada so bonus points would be awarded to someone providing me a Canadian source ;-) I just called a local distributor and they wanted C$1611 for the 10,500lb kit, which is hard to compare with the US$750 or so I've seen on some web sites. For that price difference I'll have it shipped to my Buffaly NY post box. The local people also didn't know a thing about the winches.

Well, if anyone has any good input, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
- Andrew.
The only setup I have seen is with a pump on the PTO output of the Transfer case (that was a 1985 110 with a 2.5 N/A diesel engine). The winch was large.... designing to lift (i.e. not just pull). The PTO setup was definitely nice with a extra lever in the cab (just under the passenger seat) to engage the pump/PTO. The nice thing about the PTO-based setup is that you can be in T-Case neutral position _and_ use the 5 speed of the gearbox to run the pump..... Very smooth operation! In reality, you'll probably try to find the speed where both the wheel and the winch cable would go at the same speed (so that both help the other when pulling).
It had a oil tank of probably 10+ gallon in the back (rear corner of the cab).
That winch was attached on a plate tied to the frame with the stock bumper (the radiator had to be moved back toward the engine for this setup). the plastic piece in front of the radiator had been trimmed to allow the drum to have more space.
While the hydraulic winch it-self is not as heavy as an electric winch, you will have to put an oil tank somewhere (larger is necessary as the oil gets hotter with use.... depends how much time you are planning on winching). So, I am not sure if the weight gain is really that much. Definitely better located (oil can be moved between the axles instead of all in front!).
I can probably find pics of the exterior of the truck if that can helps. Never knew what the brand of the winch was.
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  #12  
Old March 7th, 2007, 06:16 PM
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Does a PTO setup prevent you from winching out with the truck in gear?
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Old March 7th, 2007, 10:37 PM
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Not sure about the one in question, but most PTO's (not just the winch, but PTO stuff in general) can be engaged wtihout moving the truck. In our case, it generally means putting the transmission in gear and the transfer case in neutral.

-Hans
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  #14  
Old March 7th, 2007, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steinhnj
Does a PTO setup prevent you from winching out with the truck in gear?
Yes...

So that setup is not very good for self recovery. n engine driven pump makes much more sense in our application.
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Old March 7th, 2007, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steinhnj
Does a PTO setup prevent you from winching out with the truck in gear?
No, you can have the PTO running _and_ a gear selected _and_ the wheel turning. This allows for the wheel to turn and help the winch (and direct where you want to go). Basically, similar operation than with an electric winch.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90
Yes...

So that setup is not very good for self recovery. n engine driven pump makes much more sense in our application.
This is incorrect. The PTO can run at the same time as the wheels. Remember that the Land Rover was designed to help farmers and replace the tractor.... There are many farm equipment that need a PTO to run _and_ a moving puller.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
Not sure about the one in question, but most PTO's (not just the winch, but PTO stuff in general) can be engaged wtihout moving the truck. In our case, it generally means putting the transmission in gear and the transfer case in neutral.

-Hans
This is correct! PTO can be engaged while the truck is not moving and the PTO can also be engage while the truck is not moving.
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  #16  
Old March 8th, 2007, 05:08 AM
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the PTO can be engaged with or without drive to the wheels, but with the PTO engaged with drive to the wheels the one issue is the line speed of the winch is not the same as the vehicle speed as the ratio between the two is different and selecting another gear wont help as it would with belt driven hydraulic or electric winches.
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  #17  
Old March 8th, 2007, 08:26 AM
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The hydralic seems like a pain, truck has to be running and more parts to fail. And just what a rover needs----another area for fluid leak.
Maybe I am missing something here....I put a Husky 10k and had a custom bumper made cheaper than some of the varieties of bumpers (safariguard....etc)
Granted I put another battery in also.....
Just a thought....
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  #18  
Old March 8th, 2007, 08:38 AM
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Andrew Clarke
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One problem with a PTO on a 110 is that you can't have a PTO AND an overdrive AFAIK. I'm planning on putting a transfer case from a Discovery in this spring to help with the gearing issues, and a PTO would be nice, but that would preclude me from ever being able to put in an overdrive. Or am I wrong about this?

Oh, and btate: the truck doesn't have to be running for a hydraulic system if you put in an electric hydraulic pump. I mean I could just get this winch for C$450 http://www.costco.ca/en-CA/Browse/Pr...opnav=&browse= but I'm looking for something that once I've gone to the effort of putting it in is the best solution. Like you said, with an electric you need a second battery and all the parephenalia associated with that ... OTOH between all the other electrics I'll likely be adding (computer, fridge, driving lights, etc.) I'll probably need a second battery anyway.

Choices, choices.
- Andrew.
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  #19  
Old March 8th, 2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ne4x4
the PTO can be engaged with or without drive to the wheels, but with the PTO engaged with drive to the wheels the one issue is the line speed of the winch is not the same as the vehicle speed as the ratio between the two is different and selecting another gear wont help as it would with belt driven hydraulic or electric winches.
And then when you forget it is engaged and choose reverse, your pump goes boom....
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Old March 8th, 2007, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90
And then when you forget it is engaged and choose reverse, your pump goes boom....
one would think there would be an automatic disengage... i've had some experience with dump trucks where the hydraulics where pto driven and they worked regardless of which direction the truck was moving, probably not the same thing but still you'd think they would address that usecase...
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