LT230T Front Output Flange questions...... - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old February 15th, 2006, 02:07 PM
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LT230T Front Output Flange questions......

I searched the forums but I did not find anything specific to this..... I am having driveline vibrations after installing a freshly rebuilt LT230T. The vibrations are minimized when shifting the ZF auto into neutral so I am pretty sure it it not tire related. The D90 has a 2" lift and a Tom Woods DC front draftshaft (8 months old) that was smooth when attached to the original t-case. Last night when I went to remove the front driveshaft to help isolate the vibration, I noticed that the front t-case output flange has some significant side to side motion. I have not done a testdrive w/o the driveshaft yet, but I am thinking that this is the cause for the unwanted vibration.

Several questions; how much side to side play is normal for this flange, if any (I have a small mpg video of the movement if anyone interested)? Can the front flange bearing be replaced with the t-case still in the D90 (the LR labor time shows 5+ hours which leads me to believe the t-case needs to come out)? What would cause this bearing to be loose (it was new when rebuilt)? I only have ~50 miles on the D90 since putting in the new t-case. Can a problem with the drive shaft cause something like this so quickly? The vibration was mildly felt immediately after initial t-case install, but has gotten progressively worse over the first 50-miles of driving. Any help would be appreciated. THANKS!
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  #2  
Old February 15th, 2006, 02:46 PM
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I've never seen the output shafts on anything act like you described. It would definitely cause the vibration you are describing.

Might have been a factory defective bearing that went in there. Or possibly the driveshaft is out of balance and burned the bearing, but that is unlikely.

-Hans
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  #3  
Old February 15th, 2006, 04:21 PM
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the bearing preload could be set wrong.
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  #4  
Old February 15th, 2006, 07:29 PM
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HELP..... More info.... I drove around the block with the front drive shaft removed while in diff lock high. I stilll had the driveline vibration. I notice the the side to side motion of the front flange was greatly reduce while in diff lock (almost unnoticeable). It kind of makes sense since the diff lock is in the front housing and would stabilize the front output shaft & flange when locked. As for the rear drive shaft, the vibrations occured with a original stock LR drive-shaft and a brand new Tom Woods DC drive-shaft that was just installed after I started experiencing this vibration problem. Again, the only change to the D90 has been a rebuilt t-case (with an underdrive unit). The other components have remained the same. Suggestions?
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  #5  
Old February 15th, 2006, 08:36 PM
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try taking the rear driveline out with the front attached and see if that gets you anywhere. Then I would go from there.

I assume you used cranked radius arms to correct the pinion angle for that DC driveshaft? Is that right?
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  #6  
Old February 16th, 2006, 11:23 AM
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I'm with Bradlee on this, make sure it is the front end, the output should not move, is the big nut tight or the output flange? When you say side to side do you mean it pulls in and out, as in pulls out twards the front of the rover? Or do you mean it goes from left to right? Send the video
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  #7  
Old February 16th, 2006, 07:04 PM
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Thanks Mike and Bradlee. I do not have cranked radius arms. I only have a 2-2 1/2" lift and I have been running the TW DC front drive-shaft for 6-7 months with no problems. The entire front end is tight, with poly bushings and tie rod ends that are only 8 months old. I am using Rover Track trailing arms. Front and rear diffs have ARBs. I just replace the A-arm ball joint. Everything looks good and solid.

Now for the latest, I just went for a test drive without the rear driveshaft and the vibrations have almost completely dissipated. This was not what I was expecting especially since I think the front flange has a little too much play (when not in diff lock). So, what could this mean? My rear diff is starting to go? I have something wrong with the parking brake drum? Could it still be something with the T-case since I did have some small metal shaving on the drain plug? Suggestions, suggestions... Thanks.

Also, I did see some wear marks on the teeth that the fork ring slides back and forth on in the main t-case housing. See pic. Is this normal? Can this be source of some shavings? I am open to opinions....
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  #8  
Old February 16th, 2006, 07:30 PM
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Get a dial indicator and measure the runout on the flange faces. It should be 0 or close to it. You could have a bent shaft, bent flange, or bad spacer or shaft speedo gear. I just spent the day sorting a similar vibration. I ultimately found that the shaft speedo gear was incorrectly machined (bore not square) and when I tightened the flange it applied a bending load to the shaft and caused .5mm runout on the flange face...which gave a hell of a vibration with the rear driveshaft installed, but went away with the shaft removed.
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  #9  
Old February 17th, 2006, 07:39 AM
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Hey Rob, Very interesting. Sounds like a real possibility. The speedo gear had to be put in at the local shop since it was not a part of the rebuild. I will also check run-out on the rear flange. I am away this weekend, but a may call your shop on Monday to understand more details of what you found. Thanks again for the expertise.
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  #10  
Old February 17th, 2006, 12:00 PM
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That's all pretty interesting. RoadsiderRob sounds like he might be onto something there. Keep us updated on what you find!
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  #11  
Old February 21st, 2006, 08:06 AM
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I still have not resolved the problem. I checked runout on the rear flange and it was very minimal. With the parking drum and aluminum spacer for the TW DC driveshaft, I saw a maximum of .006". After removing the drum, the actual flange measured up to .003". I put the vehicle up on jack stands and ran 35+ mph with no noticable vibration or noises. The vibration only occurs under real load (constant throttle and accelerating). I am taking the D90 to get it aligned and the tires re-balanced tonight just as a double check. The next thing I will check is the balance of the parking drum (although it showed no movement at 35+ mph) since I had to flatten two edges to fit past the underdrive. If all this proves nothing, I am left to believe it is something internal to the rebuilt t-case that can not be seen by invisible inspection. Mike, Rob and Bradlee, thanks for your help.
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  #12  
Old February 21st, 2006, 09:43 AM
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Have you inspected that rear driveshaft for u-joint wear?
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Old February 21st, 2006, 01:22 PM
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Rear drive-shaft u-joints are good. I have tried both my stock LR driveshaft (still good) and my new Tom Woods DC drive-shaft. The vibration occurs with both drive-shafts. No difference is noticable. Everything spinning last night on the jack stands looked real smooth (at +35mph). The vibration only occurs under load which can not be simulated on jack stands. On the road, vibration begins at 20mph and continues when maintaining constant throttle or accelerating and dimishes significantly when level off throttle or shifting ZF auto into neutral (removing load from t-case).
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Old February 21st, 2006, 04:23 PM
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Look for a twisted rear axle. I had a hell of time with a vibration on a d-90 some years ago. It only vibrated on acceleration or when going 70+. The axle shaft was twisted But still holding togther. I Replaced the shaft and the vibration was gone.
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 08:12 AM
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Thanks Scott, I can take a look, However, I have Rovertrack's HD rear axles. These seem to be indestructible (at least something else will break before these puppies). Also, no vibrations with rear axle/diffs before having the t-case replaced. After having rebuilt t-case installed, the vibrations started within a few miles of roadway use.
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 08:28 AM
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In addition to the suggestions you've already received why not check the engine and trnasmisison/transfer case mounts?

Also, with respect to the first comments about play in the front output flange . . . that's a false trail. The front flange will always have some play when the shaft is removed because of its design. We replaced several before figuring that out years ago. The play in front sounds normal to me.
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robisonservice
In addition to the suggestions you've already received why not check the engine and trnasmisison/transfer case mounts?

Also, with respect to the first comments about play in the front output flange . . . that's a false trail. The front flange will always have some play when the shaft is removed because of its design. We replaced several before figuring that out years ago. The play in front sounds normal to me.
John thats what I thought about the front output, but when I looked at the video he sent I changed my mind. It doesn't wiggle in and out like some but it moves side to side and up and down, that and he had the driveshaft on it when he was moving it. Maybe still normal, but normal for a newly rebuilt?
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 11:12 AM
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When the vehicle is running the front driveshaft is pressed up by the load from the driveshaft so it does not really move in real life but it can be rocked while under the truck.

The front shaft comes forward inside the box and that bearing is like a ball unit that can rock. If they had used something like a 1 inch roller bearing it would be tight, but its not.

I didn't see the video and maybe this guy has a unique problem but I find most supposedly loose fornt bearings are really OK. They may be a bit loose but they are not causing service problems.
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  #19  
Old February 24th, 2006, 08:08 AM
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Update: The engine and transmission mounts are new. These were replace when we converted to a 4.2L w/ ZF auto. I try a couple of other things, the first was interesting. I attached the rear drive-shaft directly to the rear output flange without the transmission brake drum. The vibrations were significantly less, but it was hard to tell if they were completely gone. This leads me to believe two possibilities; the drum needs to be balanced a little better (which I will try to do this weekend), or the extra mass rotating on the back of the t-case exasperates an issue inside the t-case. Interestingly, when I remove both drive-shafts and run the vehicle to 50+ mph (no load), no wobble or abnormal movement can be detected at the transmission brake drum. It seems well balanced. I can feel some minor vibrations on the t-case itself, but this may be very normal considering all the moving parts inside.

New question, has anyone heard of a issue where the driveline was so tight (many new parts) that I may be dealing with a harmonic or sin wave function as everything is turning under load? I am looking for an explanation why the bulk of the vibrations only occur under a load on the drivetrain.
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  #20  
Old February 24th, 2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiphartzell
Update: The engine and transmission mounts are new. These were replace when we converted to a 4.2L w/ ZF auto. I try a couple of other things, the first was interesting. I attached the rear drive-shaft directly to the rear output flange without the transmission brake drum. The vibrations were significantly less, but it was hard to tell if they were completely gone. This leads me to believe two possibilities; the drum needs to be balanced a little better (which I will try to do this weekend), or the extra mass rotating on the back of the t-case exasperates an issue inside the t-case. Interestingly, when I remove both drive-shafts and run the vehicle to 50+ mph (no load), no wobble or abnormal movement can be detected at the transmission brake drum. It seems well balanced. I can feel some minor vibrations on the t-case itself, but this may be very normal considering all the moving parts inside.

New question, has anyone heard of a issue where the driveline was so tight (many new parts) that I may be dealing with a harmonic or sin wave function as everything is turning under load? I am looking for an explanation why the bulk of the vibrations only occur under a load on the drivetrain.
That can happen. There is not much way to find it unless you have a 4-wheel rolling road to run the car on. I have seen several Rovers with trouble like that over the years.

As I said by email, I looked at your video and I don't think the looseness in the bearing is a cause. It may be a symptom.
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