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  #61  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:41 PM
ezzzzzzz
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Mark Garrenton
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John, for the sake of clarity please state your extensive background, professionally or avid enthusiast, that backs up your claims that so much is impossible. Dyno or not, 250hp from a 3.0 5 cylinder is certainly achievable. I've got a Datsun 2.8 L6 with a M62 SC that has been built and cammed to produced at least 250hp based on Ron Iskenderian's calculations. I will dyno it when the project is completed. That's only pushing 8lbs of boost. Robert Davis and I were building normally aspirated 3.0 4 cylinder GM engines that produced over 150hp with zero high performance upgrades in the 90's. They could easily been modded to get to a mid 200hp rating but offroad use would have suffered greatly. There are many examples of small displacement engines in production cars that can produce those numbers. You could do a little web searching to find information on the OM617 platform to see that it can produce impressive performance. Whether or not the vehicle would be pleasant to drive remains to be seen. I ran a '73 Z28 with a built LT1 in full metal street trim that ran low 12's. It produced close to 500hp using 40 year old technology (no, I don't have the paperwork to appease you), pulled 8 inches of vacuum at a 1200 rpm idle, ate 11" HD clutches every 2 months and was a damn scary bitch to drive. The bottom line here is most of us on this forum are supportive of others projects, accomplishments and setbacks. You should try that approach some time.
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  #62  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:47 PM
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John B.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Anyone remember why the OP posted in the first place?

That was answered multiple times..... We have moved on. Okay, well I've moved on. The other two are just angry.

Now... Someone explain to me why people get upset when you ask facts and want source data? Way to much social touchy feely for a technical site.... Does nobody ever question you on things in real life?

Anywho, Robert's link is cool. Lots of nice useful data. I plug in their data to my power/speed calculations and I come up nicely with their 325 km/h top speed, so at least I know my calcs are nicely in the ballpark.

So that showed me that 230 hp is certainly doable with a big budget and a race car in 1976. I'm still not sure that you can do better today with some bolt on parts and no testing and have a reliable engine, but apparently I'm just an asshole for asking.
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  #63  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezzzzzzz View Post
John, for the sake of clarity please state your extensive background, professionally or avid enthusiast, that backs up your claims that so much is impossible..
I never said it was impossible. I said I doubted it and asked, simply, for some backup information. I'm interested in it. What I do in real life is a lot more complicated, but that is not important. How can anyone say they have a 250 hp setup when nobody has ever tested it?

Of course 250 hp is possible from a 3 liter diesel... You may have noticed the ones in the current RR. But those diesels are common rail with sequential turbos in a 6 cylinder. Doing the same with a single turbo and indirect injection is a hell of a push. If it is possible in a reliable form, cool. Let's see what turbo and fueling is needed. Let's see a dyno so that we know they are not pulled out of thin air. Let's we understand the torque curves so that people are not putting in the wrong drivetrain parts.

This is the "technical discussions" area of the forum. Let's have technical discussion.....
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  #64  
Old December 7th, 2015, 05:04 PM
scrubs
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henery
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Dude, all the information you're asking for has been provided,
Go directly to them for specifics. ........ur gonna doubt anyone other than the builder & they're really nice people whom like to share what you're asking for
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  #65  
Old December 7th, 2015, 05:11 PM
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First off, John, no one is mad at you, just confused by such a narrow minded approach that's all.

Howard is no expert and catching up with the learning curve.
He is trying to be very slow and methodical for someone just getting his feet wet in the performance world.
Without any local support without his online friends he would be on his on.
He buys the M-IP with 7.5mm plungers and external ALDA, a larger turbo, a W115 manifold, adds a full width intercooler, burns out his clutch and also needs to upgrade his transmission.
He is overwhelmed by the performance that has woke up his 110.
While his gearbox is out, he emails me and I propose he ask the forum... wealth of knowledge, and all that.
He asks a question and gets told he is bill shitting.
I don't think he is, but since you spoke out putting his performance estimate down, I've been trying to get you to realize that you are mistaken, simple and straight without hate, ill will, or discontent.
The more I try and convince you, the more defensive you get, jumping to the wrong conclusions with narrow minded statements. The real issue here is that Howard came here for help and got a put down.
If your goal is to put people down, then you should talk to the other moderators and see if that is acceptable mature behavior.

I am not perfect, but I do try to help people as best I can.
Occasionally have disagreed with people on-line, but I don't take it personal.
As a result, I try (not always successfully) to help everyone and try not to make sarcastic comments.
I know you can be a gentleman, just can't accuse you of being one on this thread.
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  #66  
Old December 7th, 2015, 05:28 PM
scrubs
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henery
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Robert, Thank you for stepping up,
John, it's all there, just outside of yours n my box of knowledge, I've been working and reading on this for some time, it is much more HP than asked for but that's the way the engine is set up, no not the biggest baddest one out there by far, just building for personal enjoyment, not to impress anyone but myself.
If you ever get this way your more than welcome to stop in, you might have some pointers or walk away laughing to yourself.
For me it's plane ol fashion therapy n enjoyment.
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  #67  
Old December 7th, 2015, 06:40 PM
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These old Mercedes diesels were dogs.

------ Follow up post added December 7th, 2015 06:42 PM ------

More proof the om617 is a dog that can't hunt.
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  #68  
Old December 7th, 2015, 06:51 PM
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Okay then. Assuming the builder is correct on 250 hp, the R380 is a bad choice for a gearbox. It is not up to that much torque.

If peak power is at 4200 rpm, 250 hp is 424 Nm (313 lb-ft) @4200 which is already above the box rating. Peak torque must surely be over 540 Nm (400 lb-ft). A stock 2.8 with a VNT has a peak torque of 277 lb-ft and they are known to kill R380s.

I'm sorry if people think I'm not being nice. I don't talk to "people". I talk to data. People are incomprehensible to me. When I state "BS", I'm talking to the "number", not to the person.

If people want advice that is useful, we need to talk about the numbers and make sure they are real. I'm quite sure Howard would not be happy when 5th gear explodes 100 miles after buying and installing a new gearbox.
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  #69  
Old December 7th, 2015, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
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You sound single.

-Jeff
Nope. If you think I'm hard to argue science with, you can talk to my wife. She will tear your brain out and shove it down your throat.
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  #70  
Old December 7th, 2015, 10:25 PM
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Robert Davis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
These old Mercedes diesels were dogs...
Stop showing OM617 installs well over 250HP you Instigator.
Practice falling down and...

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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #71  
Old December 8th, 2015, 12:51 AM
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Practice falling down
Who?
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  #72  
Old December 8th, 2015, 01:39 PM
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Robert Davis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezzzzzzz View Post
Who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpayne View Post
Who?
Guess Who?

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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #73  
Old December 8th, 2015, 02:42 PM
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Who me!?! An instigator - I think not.
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  #74  
Old December 8th, 2015, 04:13 PM
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Charles Galpin
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How do I find ratings like the maximum input rpm? Does anyone know if a LT230 will happily run about 7k rpm input pushing a rover along at about 75mph? I have bench tested mine to 10k, but I realize without load that's meaningless.
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  #75  
Old December 8th, 2015, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
How do I find ratings like the maximum input rpm? Does anyone know if a LT230 will happily run about 7k rpm input pushing a rover along at about 75mph? I have bench tested mine to 10k, but I realize without load that's meaningless.
Charles:
The T-case is designed to support the vehicle.
I think the RPM ranges for your use case would be sustainable as long as the components stay properly lubricated.
Spinning faster may eventually cause more wear than spinning slower, but the real thing you don't mention is the amount of torque you intend to apply.
The good news for the driver is that electric motors spin to full torque quickly.
The bad news for drive line components is that electric motors spin to full torque quickly.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #76  
Old December 8th, 2015, 05:52 PM
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Charles Galpin
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Yes, I plan to use an extended sump to help keep it cool and cross drilled my input shaft. I don't plan on hot rodding it, but do acknowledge the torque is there from the get go. It's not extreme though - 221 ft lbs of torque, supposedly dyno'd in a vehicle at 134hp, I assume at the wheels?

At this point the question is academic - I'm doing it either way. I keep forgetting to buy a kevlar blanket to drape over the whole assembly to protect me if it ever decided to explode
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  #77  
Old December 8th, 2015, 06:00 PM
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John B.
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The one thing that came up on Buck's thread on Pirate was that he was getting center diff failures in his race truck. It seemed to be from oil not being able to stay inside the center diff at high speeds. They did a bunch of mods to force oil to the center of the diff.

7000 rpm is not that crazy though. V8 gearboxes are 0.73:1 5th gear.
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  #78  
Old December 8th, 2015, 06:17 PM
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Cool, so when the pieces of flywheel and bellhousing come through the aluminum floor, there will be a kevlar blanket to cushion the impact against your toes/knees/arms/face

I could be wrong but I think you need more than a blanket!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
Yes, I plan to use an extended sump to help keep it cool and cross drilled my input shaft. I don't plan on hot rodding it, but do acknowledge the torque is there from the get go. It's not extreme though - 221 ft lbs of torque, supposedly dyno'd in a vehicle at 134hp, I assume at the wheels?

At this point the question is academic - I'm doing it either way. I keep forgetting to buy a kevlar blanket to drape over the whole assembly to protect me if it ever decided to explode
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  #79  
Old December 8th, 2015, 06:46 PM
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There is no need for paranoia. There are no reciprocating assemblies in an lt230. You will feel vibration and hear bad noises long before anything literally explodes.

Bearings and gear teeth will fail long before anything else
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  #80  
Old December 8th, 2015, 07:06 PM
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He won't have any gear failures with that low of a torque input.
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