LT230 education help - Page 3 - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old December 7th, 2015, 02:06 PM
rdavisinva's Avatar
rdavisinva
Status: Online
Robert Davis
N/A
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Unless someone has dynoed one, then nobody know for sure. It is ridiculous (in my mind) that anyone would be tuning an engine to double stock power without involving a dyno.

So what crazy levels of boost are being used to get to that amount of power?
So we know from the specs that the C-111 had an OM617 that produced 230HP in 1978.
This was believed to be with with 6.5mm plungers and a tuned stock M-IP that had an internal ALDA.
Fast forward to 2015 and Goran is building external ALDA IPs for the OM617, OM606, and so on.
Granted the OM606 is a different engine with the same displacement as the OM617 and with a very similar IP.
If it can produce over 500 HP with 8mm plungers an external ALDA and about 30 PSI boost, don't you think it's reasonable that the OM617 can produce 250HP with 7.5mm plungers at 15 PSI boost?
__________________
RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #42  
Old December 7th, 2015, 02:19 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Neither of those boost figures make sense. You double the horsepower, you must double the airflow as a minimum. It is simple math. You can't just stuff fuel in and make power. There needs to be an equivalent increase in air flow. I still see no proof of these horsepower claims. I did go look and the best dyno I saw was around 150 hp.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old December 7th, 2015, 02:43 PM
rdavisinva's Avatar
rdavisinva
Status: Online
Robert Davis
N/A
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Neither of those boost figures make sense. You double the horsepower, you must double the airflow as a minimum. It is simple math. You can't just stuff fuel in and make power. There needs to be an equivalent increase in air flow. I still see no proof of these horsepower claims. I did go look and the best dyno I saw was around 150 hp.
Are you aware that the stock boost on the US spec OM617 is like 6-7 PSI?

When a dyno page at 250 HP or better shows up and it eventually will as Goran sells IPs, what will you say then?

Hell you could use the 1978 setup and add propane boost and get 250 without Goran's IP.
__________________
RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #44  
Old December 7th, 2015, 02:51 PM
sonoronos's Avatar
sonoronos
Status: Online
Ed
None
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 5,524
Registry
I'm totally lost regarding what robert and john are arguing about.

Robert posted some dyno figures for an OM606 which has ~140 NA bhp running at >35psi boost. He also mentions some hot-rod racing OM617 engines which has ~80 NA bhp but boosted to 300hp, which could be done via some big turbos running >30psi and revving the engine 1000-1500rpm above the standard redline.

None of these figures sound unreasonable, especially in engines that last a couple of races and have to be rebuilt often.

I think John was originally suspicious of the OP's claimed "250hp" number and wanted proof. Robert is saying "it's possible", but just because it's possible doesn't prove that the OP actually has a 250hp OM617 engine.

The OP just told John to pound sand - I guess that discussion is over
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:00 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Are you aware that the stock boost on the US spec OM617 is like 6-7 PSI?

When a dyno page at 250 HP or better shows up and it eventually will as Goran sells IPs, what will you say then?

Hell you could use the 1978 setup and add propane boost and get 250 without Goran's IP.
Okay. 7 psi is 22 psi absolute. Doubling the volume is 44 psi absolute or 29 psi boost at the same IAT. I'm sure with more engine speed and overfuelling this can be a bit lower, but not 15 psi.

I would love to see the dynos and some real tech.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:04 PM
rdavisinva's Avatar
rdavisinva
Status: Online
Robert Davis
N/A
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
I'm totally lost regarding what robert and john are arguing about.

Robert posted some dyno figures for an OM606 which has ~140 NA bhp running at >35psi boost. He also mentions some hot-rod racing OM617 engines which has ~80 NA bhp but boosted to 300hp, which could be done via some big turbos running >30psi and revving the engine 1000-1500rpm above the standard redline.

None of these figures sound unreasonable, especially in engines that last a couple of races and have to be rebuilt often.

I think John was originally suspicious of the OP's claimed "250hp" number and wanted proof. Robert is saying "it's possible", but just because it's possible doesn't prove that the OP actually has a 250hp OM617 engine.

The OP just told John to pound sand - I guess that discussion is over
I think it's narrow minded to say 250 HP is BS, when 230 was achieved in 1978 without Goran's high performance pump.

Gorans M-IP with 7.5mm plungers external ALDA and 15-20 PSI boost with a full width intercooler and a W-115 inlet manifold can do 250HP no question.

Yes 250 HP out of a US spec OM617 with the MW-IP with 5.5mm plungers and internal ALDA with 5-7 PSI boost without an intercooler is BS, agreed.
__________________
RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:11 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
I think it's narrow minded to say 250 HP is BS, when 230 was achieved in 1978 without Goran's high performance pump.
You say 230 hp was achieved in 1978. All I ask is some sort of proof.... A link to something, somewhere where someone may have possibly witnessed a measurement of horsepower in this ballpark.

I did spend an hour looking around on the internet and could not find anything other than people saying going anywhere near this in a 617 and your engine will blow up in short order. I found some dynos, but nothing over 150.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:12 PM
ezzzzzzz
Status: Offline
Mark Garrenton
Too many here or gone to list here
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Portsmouth Virginia
Posts: 758
Who?
__________________
I need to go back to work for the break. Retirement is exhausting!

'71 IIA 88" LS1 hybrid
'84 110 5 door 'Nigerian Princess'
'90 RRC
'97 D1 LSE (parting out)
'02 D2 Kalahari
'02 D2 SE
'02 D2 SE
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
I'm not being narrow minded. All we have is you stating numbers. You have obviously never run a truck on a dyno. The OP have obviously not run his truck on a dyno. Personally, I don't just blindly accept power claims. Show me the money...

You guys should be running dynos just to make sure you are managing and controlling peak torque. That nice new and expensive Land Rover gearbox will blow up if you have too much.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:18 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezzzzzzz View Post
Who?
Please expand on the question....
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:28 PM
rdavisinva's Avatar
rdavisinva
Status: Online
Robert Davis
N/A
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
I'm not being narrow minded. All we have is you stating numbers. You have obviously never run a truck on a dyno. The OP have obviously not run his truck on a dyno. Personally, I don't just blindly accept power claims. Show me the money...

You guys should be running dynos just to make sure you are managing and controlling peak torque. That nice new and expensive Land Rover gearbox will blow up if you have too much.
John:
You don't know me, so how can you say I have never run on a dyno?
This is purely another example of a narrow minded statement.
__________________
RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:45 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
John:
You don't know me, so how can you say I have never run on a dyno?
This is purely another example of a narrow minded statement.
I say that because I asked to see a dyno and if you had run one, I assume you would show it to me or, in the least say "I ran an OM617 in 1922 on the dyno and it had 200 whp, but I don't have a copy of the printout". I'm sorry if I was wrong. I was just putting 1 and 1 together.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:46 PM
scrubs
Status: Offline
henery
1974
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: midwest,USA
Posts: 580
HP by elements
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old December 7th, 2015, 03:57 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubs View Post
Okay, let me ask it this way to avoid further raising Robert's blood pressure....

What boost are you running and what turbo?

What is your top speed and what is the cause of the limit? I can pretty accurately determine wheel hp based on your top speed if it is engine limited.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:13 PM
scrubs
Status: Offline
henery
1974
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: midwest,USA
Posts: 580
Welp, .......at this time really don't believe anything put to you would matter.......true to your signature. ....."pissing people off".......

I've put alot of time and resources into my build & I'm dam proud of it, so to try n explain to a doubter who just limes to piss people off......well you get the idea. .....
You are a very valuable asset to this community n thank you for the lt230 information
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:19 PM
rdavisinva's Avatar
rdavisinva
Status: Online
Robert Davis
N/A
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
You say 230 hp was achieved in 1978. All I ask is some sort of proof.... A link to something, somewhere where someone may have possibly witnessed a measurement of horsepower in this ballpark.
If you don't read the posts, then you overlook the proof...
The link was provided back in post 18, 38 posts ago!
LMAO.
__________________
RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:29 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Sorry. I'm not trying to piss anyone off. I just like having science and facts. I just wanted some facts backing up such big power in an old and small diesel.

Are you not interested in what power you are actually making? I'm sure others would be as they would love a 250 hp diesel option. Personally, I think you guys are a bit too trusting in numbers that people throw around, but that is just me apparently.

For what it is worth, from my calcs, which seem to match well with other known engine outputs...a stock height and tired Defender with 250 engine hp should be able to do around 115 mph with the right gearing. This uses a number of 159 wheel hp (15% drivetrain loss). Not sure anyone wants to test 115 mph in a Defender but you would still be accelerating well at 90.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:33 PM
Red90's Avatar
Red90
Status: Online
John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 9,227
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
If you don't read the posts, then you overlook the proof...
The link was provided back in post 18, 38 posts ago!
LMAO.
With all due respect Robert. You added the link during an edit later on. It was not there when I read your post originally.
__________________
Pissing people off on the "net" since 1983.

Land Rover. Turning owners into mechanics since 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:37 PM
Rocky's Avatar
Rocky
Status: Offline
Chris
72 + D1 drivetrain
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colonies Aka Boston
Posts: 8,764
Anyone remember why the OP posted in the first place?

Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old December 7th, 2015, 04:40 PM
scrubs
Status: Offline
henery
1974
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: midwest,USA
Posts: 580
You gotta do what you've done for your LR knowledge, which is excellent, go wherever they run these setups,
It's all there n very easily accomplished

I posted looking for LT230 information
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Tags
lt230

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A quick education on Rostyle wheels Gas_Donkey Misc. Chit-Chat 53 January 2nd, 2017 04:03 PM
lt230 tcase mount rhs (disco lt230) Cajun Wanted 8 October 14th, 2015 06:30 PM
RUST - Education Jonesy Defender Technical Discussions 3 July 24th, 2015 11:24 AM
An Education on Boost Wheels... Holiday Defender Technical Discussions 2 January 17th, 2011 11:11 AM
underdrive for lt230 boxerhips Wanted 1 October 9th, 2003 10:00 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:23 PM.


Copyright