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  #21  
Old April 7th, 2014, 12:52 PM
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You need to step back and think about what you have found. All four boxes had been run on the wrong oil...a heavy oil. All four were brought to you because they failed....

How many boxes are you getting come in that have used the correct oil their whole lives? Seeing as 99% of people would use the correct fluid....and those are not the ones coming in broken.....
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  #22  
Old April 7th, 2014, 01:16 PM
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Interesting regarding the internal pump.
Lets try and brainstorm a little.
Wonder if the 90WT was not circulating being too heavy for the pump, but providing a heavy oil lubrication to keep the bearings sufficiently lubed.
Then when these LT77s had the lighter fluids, the pump didn't perform well enough to meet demand on the front layshaft bearing in these 4 units that failed.
The one thing in common is they all had 90WT and then ATF or MTF with early failures.

We've had LT77s with ATF and when renewed with new ATF had no issues.
It could just be a coincidence, but wanted to bring it up here as more heads thinking on the same issue, the better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
You need to step back and think about what you have found. All four boxes had been run on the wrong oil...a heavy oil. All four were brought to you because they failed....

How many boxes are you getting come in that have used the correct oil their whole lives? Seeing as 99% of people would use the correct fluid....and those are not the ones coming in broken.....
Exactly.
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  #23  
Old April 7th, 2014, 03:00 PM
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  #24  
Old April 7th, 2014, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Wonder if the 90WT was not circulating being too heavy for the pump, but providing a heavy oil lubrication to keep the bearings sufficiently lubed.
It's possible that splash lubrication provides sufficient oil feed to the layshaft/mainshaft bearings as well as gear teeth , but remember that all gears have needle bearings on the mainshaft that depend totally on oil pump pressure.

Running synchros with gear oil will probably result in significant early wear, but since they are friction operated, they probably work great with gear oil in the case - while they live.

My guess is that the end result is that the mainshaft needle bearings (as well as 5th gear's needle bearings) plus the synchros will die early.

Either way, do not run 90W in the LT77!!
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  #25  
Old April 7th, 2014, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Hmmm new metal pump parts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
It's possible that splash lubrication provides sufficient oil feed to the layshaft/mainshaft bearings as well as gear teeth , but remember that all gears have needle bearings on the mainshaft that depend totally on oil pump pressure.

Running synchros with gear oil will probably result in significant early wear, but since they are friction operated, they probably work great with gear oil in the case - while they live.

My guess is that the end result is that the mainshaft needle bearings (as well as 5th gear's needle bearings) plus the synchros will die early.

Either way, do not run 90W in the LT77!!
So in theory, I think these LT77 gearboxes were just hanging on with 90WT and had failed pumps, so when we swapped out the 90WT for ATF or MTF-94 they failed in the short term...

Where as the services we did on LT77s that already had ATF/MTF kept going because they never had any 90WT inside.
Will have to pull one apart someday to be sure, but am much too busy right now.

Thanks Ed and John for all your input and Clay for allowing the deviation that is sort of on topic...
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  #26  
Old April 7th, 2014, 07:36 PM
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Possibly, certainly sounds believable!
It's always fun to think about how things may have failed...if you ever pull apart the boxes it would be very interesting/educational to see the failure modes you find!
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  #27  
Old December 11th, 2014, 12:47 PM
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Copy of a Land Rover Tech bulletin...it shows that the MTF94 for the R380 can be used in the LT77 and is back dated. Part Number STC9157 for 5 litres


Texaco make the oil for LR apparently so you can get the equal from that company which theoretically,will be cheaper than the Main Stealers...

TECHNICAL BULLETIN N O : 0007 ISSUE: 2 PAGE: 1 OF 2
ENGLISH
TECHNICAL BULLETIN
MODEL/DERIVATIVE: Bulletin N o : 0007
Range Rover
Discovery / New Discovery
CDS. ref: L8462bu
Issue: 2
Defender Date: 29.03.2000
Freelander

AFFECTED RANGE:
All R380 manual gearbox derivatives - refer to text for specific change points
All Freelander

RE - ISSUE INFORMATION:
Incorrect specification reference deleted from PARTS INFORMATION.
Please destroy your existing copy and replace with this Issue 2.

PROBLEM:
GEARBOX OIL - CHANGE TO SPECIFICATION

CAUSE:
At the following VINs, the original oil fill specification for the R380 gearbox was
changed to Texaco MTF94 high performance oil:
Range Rover - WA 384300
Discovery - WA 752315
Defender - WA 131138
New Discovery - All vehicles
The Freelander PG1 gearbox has used the new oil since introduction of the model.

ACTION:
MTF94 will be recognised by its orange/honey colour as opposed to the red
Dexron II oil previously used, and is now available from Land Rover Parts.
It is now the only oil which should be used for topping up and complete fill on
R380/PG1 gearbox applications.
The new oil is compatible with the old and to enable earlier vehicles to benefit from
its introduction, should be used retrospectively on vehicles prior to the above VINs
for all top up and refill requirements.
Refer to PARTS INFORMATIONoverleaf for details.
Until further notice, current Service Schedule gearbox oil change periods are
retained and must be adhered to.


IMO I also would never use EP90 for the LT77. The heaviest oil spec,as far as I am aware,by LR, was normal engine oil for the early V8 RRovers.








.
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  #28  
Old December 15th, 2014, 03:34 PM
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Just a wee update...equal spec oils to MTF94 are:


Redline MTL
Shell Spirax GSX
Castrol Systrans, sMx-s, vMx80
Mobil Mobiltrans shc30
Agip Rotra FE
Elf tranself trZ
Penrite manual gear oil xtra light
Q8 t60




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  #29  
Old December 15th, 2014, 04:06 PM
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http://www.red90.ca/rovers/MTF.htm
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  #30  
Old December 16th, 2014, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Splendid!!...Thanks for posting that page....a spot of light reading for an LR nerd for sure.



It does however say that one must be 'fully literate and knowledgeable' about certain things......that should rule the majority of us Inmates out then........

. . .. .














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  #31  
Old December 16th, 2014, 06:02 AM
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I follow this guy's advice
as he has seen more than his own rover. He has nothing to gain or lose. A couple answers on here are missing some critical inner workings in their explanations..
Anecdotes are wonderful. Here ... I have an easy 25 years working on cars... My story means something. Ive never changed tranny lube unless i had to take one apart. So it must be a waste of time.

Point is. Personal experience doesnt trump science or engineering... At least till its of wide enough scope to be statistically relevant. Though this particular subject is one of the finer lines. I knew a guy that swore by gear oil in ford transmissions t5 in particular.. Worked for him. Though the tiny oil ports probably passed one of it...
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  #32  
Old December 16th, 2014, 07:27 AM
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Yip...Ashcrofts have that advice on their website too.....I wonder who is correct Land Rover or Ashcrofts?


Oh no...this could get very like 'which engine oil is best'.....






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  #33  
Old December 16th, 2014, 09:04 AM
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I recently went with Redline MTL in my early LT77. I had no shifting issues prior to fluid change but given I didn't know what exactly was in there I did the change to establish a baseline. On the very the first shift from 1st to 2nd was rough. Not gear grinding rough, just hard to move the stick out of first. After the truck was warm the shifting from 1st was back to normal. It got to the point where I just started in 2nd until the truck was nice and warm. This weekend I changed fluid to DexIII. No more shifting issues when fluid is cold.

Clay
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  #34  
Old December 16th, 2014, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlins View Post
Copy of a Land Rover Tech bulletin...it shows that the MTF94 for the R380 can be used in the LT77 and is back dated.
I don't see where it says that.
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  #35  
Old December 16th, 2014, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jafir View Post
I don't see where it says that.
I don't get why this old thread was dredged back up in the first place.
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  #36  
Old December 16th, 2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafir View Post
I don't see where it says that.


"The new oil is compatible with the old and to enable earlier vehicles to benefit from
its introduction, should be used retrospectively on vehicles prior to the above VINs
for all top up and refill requirements."









.

------ Follow up post added December 16th, 2014 10:34 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
I don't get why this old thread was dredged back up in the first place.

It's always relevant for others who are searching for any info......it'll come up in any search engine search to assist.







.
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  #37  
Old December 16th, 2014, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlins View Post
"The new oil is compatible with the old and to enable earlier vehicles to benefit from
its introduction, should be used retrospectively on vehicles prior to the above VINs
for all top up and refill requirements."
Since the document only mentions R380 and freelander transmissions, I read that to mean that it can be used on R380 in vehhicles with VINs prior to W.

Not that it's worth arguing, just my opinion on what a slightly ambiguous TSB means.

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