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Loud "CLONK" taking off...then grinding while driving

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vin
5K views 62 replies 15 participants last post by  KGH 
#1 ·
So I was doing a final "shakedown cruise" on my Defender prior to leaving for Las Vegas tomorrow morning.

As I was pulling out of a gas station, as I engaged the clutch, I heard/felt a powerful "CLONK", then massive amounts of grinding. Notably, it jumped out of 1st, and went instead to 3rd gear when it happened. Now, I'm no transmission expert, but that sure seems like it lost a 1st gear tooth and/or synchro and the tooth/synchro, or other ancillary bits are now being tossed around inside.

Now, I left everything EXACTLY like it was and drove home in 3rd (I didn't realize it was 3rd until I was forced to shift at a stop light). After limping the 15 miles back home and before I get it on the lift, I was wondering if anyone could save me a bit of time.

The transmission is literally newly rebuilt (or so I was told, it sure looked clean and shiny). Installed in December and I find it very hard to believe that its the transmission. However, it sure as **** felt, sounded, and drives, like the transmission just **** the bed.

After arriving home, I did some feeling out. Engaged the transfer case, all engaged fine (except for the awful grinding that would happen everytime I drove around), diff lock worked, etc. Notably tho, when I was testing reverse, all hell broke loose as far as the grinding sound, and another "CLONK' happened.

Can this be anything besides my LT77 transmission? I have never, ever, ever, ever, heard of an LT233 transfer case shitting the bed on anyone, I mean heck, they were putting the LT233 transfer box in new Defenders, the things are so darn bullet proof.

When I drive and put in the clutch, all grinding goes away...hence my first inclination that my transmission **** the bed.

Any input? Advice? Guidance? Any possibility it could be something beside the transmission? I mean, I want to give the folks that rebuilt it every possible benefit of the doubt.

On a side note: Looks like I'll be flying or driving my Toyota to Vegas...go figure.
 
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#4 ·
Drain Plug...

I have attached an image of the drain plug.

I replaced the KMH speedo with a MPH speedo the same time I put the new transmission in. So my speedo shows something around 900 miles.

Somehow, I'm thinking the drain plug of a rebuilt transmission should not look like that after 900 miles. So yet another piece of circumstantial evidence indicating my tranny **** the bed. :(

Its late here, but the fluid looked effing horrible. Dark brown/gray, not red at all.
 

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#5 · (Edited)
So sorry to hear this happened to you. At least your truck had the decency to do it now on the deck rather than 500 miles from home. I was thinking it might just be the clutch plate, but I can't be sure by your description. That drain plug speaks volumes against anyone that said they spent any time in the tranny! Absolutely BS.

However, just an FYI, there's an R380 mated to a 300tdi in the for sale section that will change your life. I know, bad joke, worse timing ;-)

Sorry for your snafu.
 
#15 ·
I too suspected U-Joints or something prop shaft related. But all grinding disappears when the clutch is disengaged; coasts, turns, etc. just fine. No awful sound. No abnormal noises.

Visual/inspection shows all U-joints and prop shafts solid (in fact, they were also freshly greased for the trip).

Handbrake is solid. No binding that I could see, and just tested function. Handbrake works as designed.

What next?:icon_peace:
 
#20 ·
Uhhhh...yeah, I'm 199% effing positive. Come on man. Seriously?

Yeah, I agree with you, that does not look anything like MTL that came out. Hence why I posted the photo.

HOWEVER, I assure you good sir, that it was red MTL going in 900 miles ago.

------ Follow up post added July 24th, 2017 04:04 PM ------

I see a lot of gold in that tranny fluid.

Do you leave your hand on the shift lever when driving?

If you crack the transmission, it'll probably become obvious what happened.
Well yeah, who the hell doesn't leave their hand on the shift lever while driving around town? I'd say that is properly called "reasonably foreseeable use" if anything. If leaving your hand on the shift lever causes catastrophic transmission failure in a 1991 military truck, then I'm not wasting anymore money or time even bothering to put this truck back together.

Yeah, but I really don't relish the idea of spending gobs of time putting together some expert report on why the transmission **** the bed. So I'd like to avoid "cracking" the transmission open if at all possible.
 
#26 ·
Is is reasonable for me to conclude this based on the evidence so far? i.e., clonk, grinding, limping home, tranny plug, extension screen, and fluid inspection?

As I've previously stated, I'm no transmission expert, and I'd hate to make a false accusation or assumption. IMHO, falsely accusing someone of something is the worst form of evil in the world (falsely suspecting is an entirely different matter, hence the definition of 'suspect'), so I'd prefer to be darn sure before I start pointing fingers in self-absolution.
 
#27 ·
I think there is enough evidence of failure to justify pulling the transmission out and inspecting further. Personally I would refrain from any accusations or assumptions until after the inspection has been done.

Hopefully, if it was an error during the rebuild, you'll get some assistance in resolving the problem. If not, get a stumpy R380 shipped from Ashcroft. That will hold up to a 200tdi should you decide to go that route in the future. :)
 
#28 ·
I think there is enough evidence of failure to justify pulling the transmission out and inspecting further. Personally I would refrain from any accusations or assumptions until after the inspection has been done.
Well crap...I was hoping to avoid spending a day disassembling a transmission to find a broken gear, waiving it over my head like Braveheart and yelling "Ah HAH!". :(
 
#29 · (Edited)
Leaving your hand on the shifter is the primary reason many transmissions to not smoothy shift from 1st to 2nd and in some cases 2nd to 3rd. The syncros get prematurely warn. In fact, since most drivers remove their hand from the lever after 3rd and shift in and out of the higher gears less often you will rarely see problems with the other forward syncros in my experience.

In 900 miles you could have held the shifter with two hands the entire time and it would not really make much difference. It takes many thousands of shifts and many miles to create a noticeable problem.

I also use Redline MTL and have notice a positive difference resulting in smother shifts. The transmission overhaul and/or the parts used are clear suspects IMO.
 
#30 · (Edited)
i hate to say it, but leaving your hand on the shifter will wear the heck out of your synchros and forks. even a freshly rebuilt trans can be rapidly damaged this way.

you sound extraordinarily cavalier about your treatment of your transmission. that's dangerous. the lt77 transmission is not a transmission you want to abuse.

the lt77 is not designed with any sort of internal stop for the shift forks. if you leave your hand on the shifter while driving, it will force the fork into the synchros and the synchros into the cones, causing them to wear out rapidly. the shift forks are yellow metal, and they will often have to be replaced as part of the rebuild process.

what gear do you drive around in the most with your truck when you have your hand on the lever?
 
#31 · (Edited)
you sound extraordinarily cavalier about your treatment of your transmission. that's dangerous. the lt77 transmission is not a transmission you want to abuse.
I sound "cavalier"? I'm not entirely sure how "cavalier" one can be in 900 miles. I never even got a chance to "rock it" out of a hole; the large majority of that 900 miles was spent troubleshooting air that was getting into my fuel system.

So, with all due respect and with tongue-in-cheek: What the **** are you talking about bro, and what's that got to do with a suspected catastrophic transmission failure after 900 miles of light use?

What you're advising is the kind of advice given to a student driver: i.e., don't rest your foot on the clutch or you'll prematurely wear the clutch, don't downshift to first until you're at a complete stop or you'll prematurely wear the synchro, don't shift into reverse until you are at a complete stop...etc., etc.

What you're talking about is minor bad habits that can cause premature wear, NOT something that causes catastrophic premature failure in less than 1000 miles.

Just sayin'....
 
#34 ·
Cut me a little slack here: I have the sinking suspicion that I just got f**ked out of $1000 dollars (after all the ancillary stuff one has to buy for a transmission swap) and spent a week of hell putting a transmission in over Christmas vacation. Then after all that work the thing shits the bed after only 900 miles and now, in addition to having to perform TWO transmission swaps within 1 year, I am also now on the hook to tear down a transmission to create some type of expert "report" to even have a shot at maybe getting my money back or a replacement. Notably, I chose the rebuilder from researching and recommendations posted on THIS forum, so I'm doing my level best to remain as chill as possible. Top that off with my vacation road trip I've been planning for nearly 3 months just got cancelled and I had to buy a last minute plane ticket instead...more $$$$$.

Cavalier means "showing a lack of proper concern; offhand". Under the circumstances (read the first paragraph of this post), I found that implication beyond insulting. So I responded in kind and also let the poster know that I do, in fact, exhibit the proper amount of concern about my transmission. The only folks who were "cavalier" in this situation were the folks who claimed to have rebuilt that transmission.

I have received a PM from a forum member who has offered me help beyond all my wildest expectations. In fact, the offer was such a kind and unsolicited gesture that I'm still speechless and thinking very hard about how to properly respond as well as conferring with the boss on the matter.
 
#40 ·
The shop holds itself out as a specialist for rebuilt LR transmissions.

------ Follow up post added July 25th, 2017 01:04 PM ------

Why not contact the rebuilder now, and ask the rebuilder what you have to do in order to make a warranty claim? This seems to be the obvious next step.

I doubt you'll have to have a third party do a forensic examination. Assuming the shop that rebuilt the transmission is legit, they will fix it for you and then you get to put it back in.
Already done. Waiting to hear what the shop wants me to do next. That's why I haven't proceeded to drain anymore fluids, or start the drop.

Its also why I'm not "outing" the shop yet. Sometimes, the measure of a man's worth isn't how well he does his job, but how he behaves when he inevitably errs. In other words, everyone makes mistakes, no matter how experienced or skilled. If the shop owns up and makes it right, then all I'm dealing with a person who made an honest mistake, apologized, and did their best to make it right. So I need to see how the shop closes the loop before I jump to any conclusions.

At this juncture I'm treating it like a tough luck "sometimes **** just happens" situation. I mean, the truck is by no means my daily driver, and I'm not some teenage kid who's out his life savings. Its a gross inconvenience and I don't like throwing money down a toilet...that's about it.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Edit - forget it. Not worth effort. Anyone else interested read about the initial post installation issues in OP's posts.

It is an Ashcroft unit. OP posted that months ago. Basically the gold standard of LR gearboxes.

Call them, see what they will do. Do not open the gearbox, they will prob void warranty if you do.
 
#46 ·
Not for nothing David, but you kinda come as a dick to the very people who are trying to help you. I don't get that kind of snarky, shitty attitude but each to his own. Good luck and enjoy driving your truck.
 
#47 ·
RESOLUTION: Okay. So, I've spent a couple days chewing this over...and this has nothing to do with the personal debates/disagreements in previous posts, by the way:

My better half recommends the following, and I'm having a hard time disagreeing with her logic: Order a replacement LT77 from someone in the U.S., swap it, then sell the vehicle on ebay for whatever I can get out of it and choose something more rewarding to restore...restoring this truck is worse than playing whack-a-mole. I've done a lot of restorations of various cars and motorcycles over the years, but this one wins the prize as the most frustrating, hands down. This even beats my Triumph T150 restoration (any anyone who's dealt with triple Amals and leaky lifter tubes knows what I'm talking about).

So, unless something spectacular changes within the next couple weeks, I will probably be selling my D90 in the next couple months or so:

1991 Defender 90, 2.5NA, LHD, former Hong Kong Garrison. Clear Texas Title and current registration with plates. Imported into Texas by way of the Canada/US Peace Arch border crossing in July of 2016, prior to that it was imported to Canada from Hong Kong in 2012. All paperwork is available, and will be provided with the truck, to support this.

The primarily goal of the mechanical restoration was not to "hot rod" the truck, but instead to "restore" the truck to its original mechanical configuration as delivered in 1991.

Approximately 55,000+/- miles on the chassis, zero rust.
I was about 90% complete on a full drivetrain restoration to bring the truck back to its original mechanical state while in service with the British Royals (I even have the original Hong Kong license plates, front and rear), the ONLY core mechanical items that are not new, or completely gone through, are: the long block, glow plugs, starter, transfer case, and the braking system.

Notably, it has a brand new injection pump, new water pump, new alternator, new timing belt, entirely new fuel system (from the pickup to the return, including the injectors), new bearmach motor/transmission mounts, new exhaust, new tires (NATO spec), new gauges, including a period original dash clock I found in Italy, new (currently broken) transmission, all consumable have been replaced, all periodic maintenance checkpoints have been gone over, all linkages rebuilt using OEM bushings and rubbers, entire coolant system has had new hoses installed, rebuilt clutch pedal assembly, new clutch master, new clutch slave, new clutch hydraulic lines, new HD clutch components, etc., etc. I guess all told, I've dumped about $10k worth of new parts and 100s of hours of labor into it so far and have spared no expense. Comes with a timing kit, workshop manuals, parts catalogue, some nifty military promotional material from 1991, viscous fan wrench, and a butt load of extra consumables like Fuel filters, gaskets, fan belt, etc.

Modifications from stock implemented to allow for more efficient and reliable running: Rerouted the fuel returns to dump directly into the tank instead of into the fuel filter housing (to allow for more efficient self-bleeding), and replaced some of the nylon fuel line with rubber.

There are only TWO items that do not function as designed: 1) The transmission (will be fixed by the time I sell); and 2) the rear red fog light (also will be fixed by the time I sell). The high risk items that might go bad, because I just haven't even checked into them yet, are: 1) the starter/solenoid; 2) the brakes; and 3) possibly the prop shafts.

When paired with a working transmission and reliable fuel flow, the truck cruises comfortably between 65mph and 70mph on the freeway, you will need to downshift to 4th and may drop down to 60mph for most freeway grades.

No body restoration has been performed, it still sports the original painted on OD green paint with all the angry enlisted driver dings and scratches. The original goal was to mechanically restore a historically accurate period piece that could be used in parades, airshows, movie prop, etc., but I suppose one could just as easily drop a Tdi or LS into it if they so desired.

The reason I'm letting folks know on here is because if someone wants to drop a Tdi or LS paired with an R380 into it, it is a perfect candidate, and that's probably something you'd want to do instead of me putting another rebuilt LT77 into it.

------ Follow up post added July 25th, 2017 03:39 PM ------



You're not the first person to say that. I think the problem is what I do for a living, its very difficult to shift out of "litigator" mode. Something I need to work on, but its tough because the very people who tell me to work on how I present things, then hire me because they know I'm the biggest jerk in town when they need a jerk to represent them.

Thanks for the feedback tho.
 
#48 ·
Just swap in a used known good lt77 (cheap on here) replace the input/output seals and selector gaskets and call it a day.

Why give up on the whole truck for one issue?

These things totally run on parts. Over the course of owning the truck you will replace pretty much everything
 
#49 ·
Now THAT'S a good idea.

Honestly, I don't want to give up on the truck, but certain compromises must be made in the interests of domestic tranquility. :(

Oh, and my better half would agree with all of you that I often come off as a total dick without intending to. Also, keep in mind that I'm borderline Asperger's, so I am aware that I have a severe problem with how I make people feel when I communicate. She's constantly calling me out on that problem and she is usually the diplomat, but she doesn't know **** about cars, so unfortunately, you all have to deal with just me. :whistling:
 
#51 ·
Ashcroft is taking care of the problem and has emailed me instructions for getting everything sorted.

They walked me through a couple of tests to confirm it was the transmission, took me about 5 minutes, and they've apologized, owned up, and are making it right again.

So all's well that ends well.

Still might have to sell the truck in a couple months tho. We'll see.

Thanks to all for the replies and guidance.

My apologies to those I may have pissed off.

Cheers,

Dave
 
#59 ·
There's been other weird and frustrating issues: leaking injection pump after it was claimed to have been rebuilt (thus causing air to enter at the injection pump and get microbubbled into the mix), wrong parts received on a number of occasions, etc.

Its having to single-handedly swap a transmission twice that's the most discouraging I guess (I'm doing all the labor on this one). That's a major job and requires an enormous amount of research, preparation, patience, attention to detail, blood, sweat, and tears. Its the kind of thing that once you finish, you have a huge feeling of accomplishment, but then to have all that work be for nought, despite all attempts to use only the highest quality parts, well....its the kind of job you don't ever want to do more than once in your life.

Quite honestly, I'm think I'm more frustrated with my old lady's eye-rolling and "I told you so's".

Yes, it is rust free. The frame looks like it just came from the factory. Body has standard angry enlisted driver dings, but no rust. The only body corrosion I had to repair was the area where the clutch pedal box bolts, the clutch master cylinder had leaked and the fluid had corroded the clutch pedal box mounting area. Tore down, beadblasted, and rebuilt the pedal assembly as well. That was the only corrosion on the entire body or frame. Its quite an impressive rolling example of a Military Issue Defender 90 from the Cold War era, if that's something you're into.

I may have access to about 50 or so additional cold war era Military Defender's from the Asian theater as well. The one I have was partly a trial run to see just how much effort it would take to get them all running properly and if it would be cost justified (or even possible) to import, title, and register any of them.
 
#61 ·
I'm feeling an intervention here fellas. Let's take that first step David Esq. and admit you have a problem. Because (like crack, meth and opiates) shitty old Rovers take waaaay more than 12 steps to get out of your system. Get out while you can!!! Because it never ends.
 
#63 ·
Dave,

First the TLDR:
- We are not the enemy.
- STFU and quit being an asshole:)
- Ensure you have a daily driver and the Defender.
- **** a "restored" Ex-MOD. No one cares. Except some UK twat named Nigel in some place called Stokington on Trently, and he is a ponce anyway.
- Fix it, upgrade it, drive it with a smile on your face.

Long version:

Pretty much my experience that about half of Defender owners are jerks in their own special way. I know I am. Just take your jerk down a notch, and do not be so defensive in your replies. We are not here to **** you. Advice, even when it is common sense (did you use right fluids, etc) it is just that, advice.

Why did you not just take a different car to wherever it is you were going? And if friends or family laughed at you cause your truck broke, find new friends.

You are probably one of very few US Defender owners who care about restoring an Ex-MOD Defender. Most people will buy them and repair/refresh/customize in order to drive them. See boatloads of threads relating to PS installs, 24V system removal, removal of Clansman crap. Ex-MODs are the cheapest of Defenders, and making one original is a niche effort.

After all this, four pages, Ashcroft basically has stated no prob, they will take care of you. That is good stuff.

Do not bash the major US based Defender/LR vendors on this forum. Yeah, you, me and many others know we can get Genuine parts at 1/3 the price in 3-5 days, but somehow Vermont is a sacred and magical place, where prices jump and part numbers are all different. Just smile and giggle inside when you find the deals no one seems to care about. (I just bought 5 new Genuine Wolf wheels for $105 each, no shipping charges, and I am all warm inside).

I get loyalty to buddies, and paying for the costs of import/duties, etc. There are some forum members who run smaller shops who have good pricing and good selection. Seek them out.
 
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