Long post regarding CV Joint/Swivel housing.. - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old June 1st, 2007, 01:22 PM
Emerson00
Status: Offline
Matt J.
None at the moment
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 401
Long post regarding CV Joint/Swivel housing..

So last night I finally decided to tackle the CV Joints / swivel housing / seals.



I got as far as removing the stub housing and ready to remove the CV Joint/shaft from the housing.



I’ve developed a few questions… I know there are some mechanically inclined types frequenting this board, and hoped maybe someone could shed some light on this for a noob?



I ordered a CV Joint kit, including swivel pins and all the oil seals, from AB. The kit came with green tubes of grease… I made the assumption this was for filling the swivel housing (see below, big note ). However, as you probably guessed, the swivel housing is full of oil. Doh! So the grease is just to lubricate all the parts as they go back together? The old grease is pure black, and stinks of something (burned up or a special grease?). Makes a lot of sense the tube is for replacing this old grease.



Correct?



Now what kind of oil for the swivel housing?



Next, the instructions I found online for servicing the CV Joint mentions use of “semi-fluid grease” between the stub axle and swivel housing. It looks red, like Permatex hi Temp, but the writer specifies “EP 0 grade, Penrite brand”… looks like permatex, appears he’s using it like permatex… should I get a non-silicon Permatex product for that? Or is one of the many, many oil seals and gaskets included in the CV kit for the joint between the axle stub and swivel housing?



Last, but not least, the workshop manuals – don’t ask how, but I’ve got print for the shop and disc for here at the office – suggest a good bit of work removing the CV Joint shaft from the axle shaft etc, etc… is it necessary to do all that to replace the seals? My swivels are nearly dry (passenger side has some rust spots, too), and the shop said I have to replace Swivel oil seals… I’m not doing this again, so if I’ve got the seal, I’d like to use it and not worry about it for a couple years.



Sorry this got so long. I’m probably going to be working on all this tomorrow morning, so I was hoping to gather the answers to my questions. I need to get Rust Bucket finished so I can get back to working on the boat ASAP.



NOTE: I’ve never done this stuff before. I’m sure to a lot of you fellers this is approximate to changing oil… to me it’s like rebuilding a major part.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old June 1st, 2007, 01:52 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
The green tubes of grease are indeed for the swivel housing or you can use EP90.
The EP90 might leak a bit but Iprefer to be able to drain the swivel housing once in a while incase of water contamination whilst offroading. With the grease (which stays in much better) the first indication that some thing is up is when the CV lets go
My wife's discovery 1 gets the grease the 90 gets oil and I check it regularly

Follow-up Post:

You can replace the big seal at the back by removing the caliper and then the 7 bolts holding the chrome ball to the axle case, it's blooming heavy as it's the complete thing you're removing including the 1/2 shaft.
Saves a lot of unbolting though
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old June 1st, 2007, 02:00 PM
Emerson00
Status: Offline
Matt J.
None at the moment
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 401
So grease outside on the CV Joint/ Shaft, oil in the housing. I'm OK with that. Will the green tubes work for lubricating the Joint/Shaft as it goes back together? I bought a can of Penzoil grease at the auto parts store they recommended for the hub / wheel bearings - a suitable alternative?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old June 1st, 2007, 05:42 PM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
The liquid grease goes in the swivel housing through the filler hole when it's all assembled
It's only green 'cause the plastic tube is green
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old June 1st, 2007, 06:37 PM
Nomar's Avatar
Nomar
Status: Offline
Jeff B
RR HNTR,RR LWB Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Central,Virginia
Posts: 4,291
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson00

Last, but not least, the workshop manuals – don’t ask how, but I’ve got print for the shop and disc for here at the office – suggest a good bit of work removing the CV Joint shaft from the axle shaft etc, etc… is it necessary to do all that to replace the seals? My swivels are nearly dry (passenger side has some rust spots, too), and the shop said I have to replace Swivel oil seals… I’m not doing this again, so if I’ve got the seal, I’d like to use it and not worry about it for a couple years..
It's actually pretty easy to separate CV from inner axle...BUT, for what you're doing you dont need to do that!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old June 5th, 2007, 10:08 AM
Emerson00
Status: Offline
Matt J.
None at the moment
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 401
Well... I'm a noob, what can I say. In a few years, someone will pull this post out and laugh. I hope.

I got back last night and sorted out what was going on - now I'm a bit embarrassed.

Only thing left is to sort out the oil seal on the stub axle, and worry about replacing the swivel ball ... the Haynes "restoration manual" says if there's rust on the chrome ball, it needs replacing as it'll just wreck the seal and cause leaks. Of course there goes another $280.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old June 8th, 2007, 11:22 AM
Billakris's Avatar
Billakris
Status: Offline
Kris
Alpine White 95 Soft Top
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kansas City/ Manhattan, KS
Posts: 271
I have oil leaking out from the bottom of my swivel ball. Since I put oil in there last year, I am assuming that this is the inner swivel ball seal.

My question is, since I am going through all the work to get to that seal, what else should I look at and/or replace?

As far as I know, nothing has ever been done up there, so it is all original. Should I repack the bearings? Replace any other seals?

Thanks guys.
__________________
Kris
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old June 8th, 2007, 01:06 PM
Emerson00
Status: Offline
Matt J.
None at the moment
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 401
Kris,
I decided to get a seal kit from AB and just replace all the seals from the inner swivel seal to the axle stub... The only one which seems time consuming is the inner axle stub seal. I did repack the hub bearings, too, while I was in there.



I'm still trying to figure out WTF the preload has to do with a fish scale when I replace the swivel ball and it's pin and bearings. I've been asking a lot of people this question, and though I've sense of what's to be done (spacers, ensuring there's appropriate pressure/preload on the bearings from the bolts tightening the pin and spacers), I've yet to find out how I use a fish scale to check preload... is this like checking torque on the wrench instead of a torque wrench? Anyone? Help?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old June 8th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Billakris's Avatar
Billakris
Status: Offline
Kris
Alpine White 95 Soft Top
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kansas City/ Manhattan, KS
Posts: 271
Emerson,
thanks for the info. About how long does it take to get in there and replace the seals? Ive heard it will take a full weekend but none of it is really technically difficult, just time consuming.

Any tips?

Sorry I can't help you with the preload, right now I think i need to dive in and figure out what im actually talking about.

Thanks again for the help.
__________________
Kris
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old June 8th, 2007, 01:33 PM
jimmy salmon's Avatar
jimmy salmon
Status: Offline
jimmy salmon
94 D90 AA Yellow
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Methuen MA USA
Posts: 1,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billakris
Emerson,
thanks for the info. About how long does it take to get in there and replace the seals? Ive heard it will take a full weekend but none of it is really technically difficult, just time consuming.

Any tips?

Sorry I can't help you with the preload, right now I think i need to dive in and figure out what im actually talking about.

Thanks again for the help.
i dimantled mine upto and including seperating the swivel from the axle, took me an hour. hopfully take an hour to get it all back tonight
__________________
3rd low and BOOT IT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old June 8th, 2007, 01:59 PM
Emerson00
Status: Offline
Matt J.
None at the moment
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 401
Never having done this before, the first one took about 2 hours, including head scratching (which is messy with grease-coated fingers)... the other side, I suspect I could dismantle in an hour.

Of course, my expertise is in demolition and dismantling of anything... it's like my calling in life. I just wish I could make good money breaking stuff. I'd own a D90 instead of rust bucket.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old June 8th, 2007, 03:45 PM
RyanS's Avatar
RyanS
Status: Offline
Ryan
'93 NAS 110
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson00
I'm still trying to figure out WTF the preload has to do with a fish scale when I replace the swivel ball and it's pin and bearings. I've been asking a lot of people this question, and though I've sense of what's to be done (spacers, ensuring there's appropriate pressure/preload on the bearings from the bolts tightening the pin and spacers), I've yet to find out how I use a fish scale to check preload... is this like checking torque on the wrench instead of a torque wrench? Anyone? Help?
The fish scale is basically measuring the force required to rotate the swivel pin housing. If you multiply its reading by the distance from its attachment point to the housing axis of rotation, then you'll have the torque required to rotate the housing. You need to make sure you have the fish scale oriented in the proper direction or you'll get the wrong reading. The easiest way to do this is to establish a line from the housing axis of rotation to the attachment point for the fish scale. The fish scale should be pulled at 90 deg to this line. The direction will probably be about side-to-side across the truck (i.e. if you're pulling towards the front of the truck, that's totally wrong). If the force is too low (not enough preload), you need a thinner shim stack. If the force is too high (too much preload), you need a thicker shim stack. I found the swivel pin adjustment to be fairly easy to do as long as you've got the right shims available. HTH.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old June 9th, 2007, 02:21 AM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
You're supposed todo the pre liad check with the fish scale without the big oil seal on the chrome ball in place, what a PITA Then you have to break it down again to put he seal in
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old June 9th, 2007, 03:18 AM
4x4sche
Status: Offline
john
73 SIII_ 97 D90_94 Disco
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: wa usa
Posts: 34
Preload and fish scale

You measure the force to turn the swivel by pulling on a scale attached to the place where the track rod connects (with the tie rod and drag link removed). You can do this with the large seal in place but not bolted up, once you have the correct number of shims in the top pin and the preload is correct then you can bolt up the seal. You can set the preload with the entire assembly on or off the truck.
John
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old June 9th, 2007, 03:21 AM
mikeslandrover's Avatar
mikeslandrover
Status: Offline
Mike Hammond
110 200Tdi and a 2005 Scorpa SY250
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxted, Surrey, England, U.K
Posts: 1,756
Registry
If you have to re-shym you need ti re centre the seal or it will leak
__________________
Mike Hammond
Diesels.....great when they're going and so easy to work on.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old June 9th, 2007, 11:19 AM
Hans's Avatar
Hans
Status: Offline
Hans Haase
The D-90.com Lab Rat
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson00
Well... I'm a noob, what can I say. In a few years, someone will pull this post out and laugh. I hope.

I got back last night and sorted out what was going on - now I'm a bit embarrassed.

Only thing left is to sort out the oil seal on the stub axle, and worry about replacing the swivel ball ... the Haynes "restoration manual" says if there's rust on the chrome ball, it needs replacing as it'll just wreck the seal and cause leaks. Of course there goes another $280.
Nah, no worries at all. We all have to start from someplace, and we all have to learn. Better to ask lots of questions now, as opposed to having to do the work a few times. Many topics may be covered by the search feature, but swivel balls are pretty scarce in the topic count I believe.

The green tube of stuff is a slightly different type of grease called "One Shot", which is a heavier grease than the normal gear oil that was already in there. (Oh, and gear oil almost always smells as bad as you described, even new from the bottle). It's heavier and less prone to leaking, so seals and leakage become less of an issue with that stuff. You put it in once, and don't have to worry about checking it so often (in theory).

But the biggest piece of advice I can give is to shop around, a lot, on price for expensive parts. Almost all the bigger online places mean well and have good people, but there can be a big difference in price sometimes. Genunine LR parts usually cost the most, but in many cases are actually worth it. In some cases you can get the same part from the OEM guys that made it for Rover, same part with a different name on it, for cheaper.
__________________
My oil line fix

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
My 100k stopped odometer fix

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Brace for impact, I'm in a "modifying mood". Massive thread count inbound.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old June 12th, 2007, 09:11 AM
Emerson00
Status: Offline
Matt J.
None at the moment
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 401
Done!

Long sad story (any dog lover knows the feelings of putting down a good dog ), but I tookyesterday off. I went to the garage and re-assembled the driver's Swivel/CV/Hub/wheel assembly. Then disassembled the passenger and put it all back together (about 3 hours start to finish except the brake caliper and dust shield)... all that remains is:

1. Replace the worn out brake dust/mud shield.
2. Put on the Passenger side front brake caliper.
3. Mount the wheela nd tire.
4. Do a string alignment (should be fun).

SWEET!

I used grease because I had it, and bone-headedly forgot to buy 90 weight at the parts store. And it wanted it DONE, and I had to get home to my wife, who is still upset, as I didn't want her alone (and i'd been gone for several hours)

Problems:
On the left (driver's) rear and righ (passenger) front, each has a broken bolt for the drive hub (is that the right name forthe part the grease/dust cap goes on the outside of?). Both bolts sheared off in the Hub boss.

On the front right, there was a drop or two of water that came out before the oil, and the bottom 1/4" or so was coated with a gray pastey greasey stuff (oil/water mix?) inside the housing. As I replaced all the bearings ad the swivel ball, it didn't seem horrible problematic for the future (I cleaned it out real good with dry rags). Good thing I did this now instead of wating... the water/oil mix would surely have gotten further.

Question:
For the sheared bolts: The L/R bolt that's broken broke at the top f the threads, and doesn't grab anyting. The R/F bolt broke into the threads and "seems" to have a grip. I think I can/should leave the drive hub in place and try and un-screw-em to remove the bit inside. Doing this, if it works, allows the whole thing to stay together and avoid getting any metal shavings into the bearings/grease.

Thoughts? It's the only thing I've got to sort before being done and testing it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Defender & Series Technical Discussions > Defender Technical Discussions

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rebuild and Tdi Conversion Pix JimC Truck Build-up's & Restores 9 January 10th, 2012 04:58 AM
Long time no post Emerson00 Misc. Chit-Chat 7 November 13th, 2009 11:10 AM
Grease or Heavy Duty oil in CV Housing TND90 Defender Technical Discussions 7 June 19th, 2008 04:14 PM
24 Spline Axle Shaft (Long Side) + CV Joint + Rear Housing mudrover For Sale - Parts 0 March 2nd, 2005 09:48 AM
entire post not displayed artm Support & Suggestions 7 October 28th, 2003 09:14 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 AM.


Copyright