Lift Pump Failures? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old May 5th, 2016, 05:44 PM
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Sam Hagey
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Lift Pump Failures?

First off, it will be obvious to everyone except myself - but this is my first Rover diesel.

I'm trying to diagnose what I should tear into pieces before I go and tear everything into pieces.
Here's the back story - On a trail, waiting for a Disco 1 to clear a long upward slope of red dirt and bed rock. I'm on a small incline, in neutral with foot on the brake. Low range, dif lock. The Disco 1 clears, spotters give me a line and I drop the truck in gear and work on any chance of momentum my little NA 10J can muster. I'm 2/3's up the relatively steep hill, not even to the bouldery "tough spot" and I start getting bogged down, lose momentum, and the truck stalls. The hill was no picnic, I expected it to be a tough upward haul, but I was surprised it stalled with no obstacle blocking progress other than incline, and in low range 1st gear with a 1:1.67 TC ratio...... that's some serious low range this thing was in, and still stalled.

Here's info on the stall: Diff lock flashing warning light, Buzzer, puff of white smoke, left hand side of cab through vent. Sparks out what I presume was bell housing drain hole.


By flashlight at night on the trail, some thoughtful new friends attempted to help me diagnose the issue after using a pair of disco's and 2 winches to pull the 110 the rest of the way up the incline.

The primer lever on the pump will not build any resistance, no matter how long you pump. When the bleeder is opened on top of the filter canister, and we pump/prime, no diesel is purged.

So my concern is this- replacing a lift pump is easy, but I can't image that a rough uphill climb, sparks, smoke, etc... and the issue is a fuel pump?

I pulled the valve cover, and turned the motor over. The valves are a little lose, but I didn't drop a valve, and everything functions fine. The motor turns over just fine, but (likely for lack of fuel) she just won't fire.

So the question is this - should I be optimistic that a new lift pump cures what ails me?
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  #2  
Old May 5th, 2016, 05:50 PM
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Sure. Make sure the line to the tank is clear as well.
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  #3  
Old May 5th, 2016, 05:54 PM
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John, you instill confidence, and I thank you for that.

follow up - best place to procure me a lift pump?

LakeLBJ on here lives nearby and just scrapped his 12J last week. KICKING MYSELF for not calling him sooner. Oh well...
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  #4  
Old May 5th, 2016, 06:21 PM
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Any Rover place should be able to get you one. They are common through to 200tdi. Good to also have a second as a trail spare.

Do you have a working sedimenter? I've found the check valves in the lift pumps get stuck easily and when you don't have the sedimenter it happens too regularly.

You could also listen to Mr. Davis and use an electric pump instead.
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Old May 5th, 2016, 08:48 PM
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Pulled it off. The pump is brand new. The blue felt gasket is also brand new, barely oil stained at all.
Must be Brittpart. The arm is broken in half inside the pump after the pivot pin....

Trash.

Sounds like I should install a sediment trap/sedimenter. I traced the lines and they go straight from tank to lifter. no trap in between.
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Old May 5th, 2016, 08:51 PM
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It may have been installed wrong. Some blocks need a spacer. It may be that if it needed one and one was not put in them the arm broke off. I was never sure which one needs a spacer.
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Old May 6th, 2016, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
It may have been installed wrong. Some blocks need a spacer. It may be that if it needed one and one was not put in them the arm broke off. I was never sure which one needs a spacer.
That appears to be the issue. Rovers North has that spacer in the kit. Will try that set up
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  #8  
Old May 6th, 2016, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagey71 View Post
The primer lever on the pump will not build any resistance, no matter how long you pump.
This is probably because the lift pump lever only works when the the fuel pump camshaft lobe is in the correct position. And unless you're turning the crankshaft manually, there's no way to guarantee the lobe is in the right place.

I don't think this accurately diagnoses the lift pump.

Never mind...looks like you found your problem!
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Old May 6th, 2016, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post

Never mind...looks like you found your problem!
Yeah, once I found shrapnel it became quite apparent what the issue was

I did find a thread on how the pump needs to be effectively in the down stroke off of the cam to seal the valve so the priming arm will build pressure. This is useful information i'll need when I install the new lift pump and need to prime the system again.


I'm no engineer, but I'd bet that the scratches on the pump arm, and the broken lever all indicate that the spacer mentioned above are a must on this particular configuration. I inspected the cam, and it doesn't appear to be scratched (glad it's the harder of the two metals).

So, new lift pump, new spacers, new gaskets. easy peasy.
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  #10  
Old August 28th, 2016, 01:07 PM
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I think my lift pump may be failing. So I took the top off today to check it out and found this. Not sure what a normal amount of sediment would be in a lift pump. This one is about 1 year old.

Symptoms for me are loss of power uphill, under load (1000# camper). Otherwise the truck seems to be running well. I did replace the fuel filter and that didn't change anything for the loss of power. Did seem to clear up the bit of black smoke I had.
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  #11  
Old August 28th, 2016, 06:26 PM
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Are you running a sedimenter between tank and lift pump?


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  #12  
Old August 28th, 2016, 07:44 PM
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I have a fuel filter between tank and lift pump. I just changed the filter thinking that might be the issue but it didn't change anything. Should I run a separate sedimeter before the fuel filter or should a clean filter alone take care of this?
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Old August 28th, 2016, 07:53 PM
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A filter should be fine as long as it is sized not to cause a restriction.

The question is how did all of that large dirt get in the pump if you have a filter installed properly before it.

Have you tested of the lift pump is pumping properly?
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Old August 28th, 2016, 08:04 PM
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Have not tested the lift pump yet. Running th Wix 33472 fuel filter, says it's rated At 14 micron but the description says it gooes as small as 2 micron.

Just read a thread about NC and VA gas being full of water and sediment just spent a month driving around those two states. Power issues began last day of a road trip in KS following a nasty rain storm. Thinking maybe I needed to change my fuel filter sooner than I did. It's been a while.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 08:29 PM
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You have that Wix filter before the lift pump and not after? Filters before lift pumps should be a lot larger. Like 50 micron.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 08:32 PM
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Disconnect the line after the final filter and with the solenoid disconnected crank the engine and see if you get a good flow of fuel.
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Old August 28th, 2016, 08:44 PM
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I think it's before the lift pump. If it's after then I have nothing before. What would be the purpose of having it after?

Idiot questions: How do I disconnect the solenoid? And what is considered good flow?
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Old August 28th, 2016, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by aosias View Post
I think it's before the lift pump. If it's after then I have nothing before. What would be the purpose of having it after? Idiot questions: How do I disconnect the solenoid? And what is considered good flow?
The fuel filter is normally after as it needs a fair bit of pressure to push the flow through the fine filter. Sucking through a fine filter can cause problems. You might want to show some pictures of the fuel piping to make sure it was done correctly. Everyone assumes a stock setup.

You disconnect the wire to the solenoid on the injection pump.

It should be pumping out of the line at a good rate.
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  #19  
Old August 28th, 2016, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aosias View Post
I think it's before the lift pump. If it's after then I have nothing before. What would be the purpose of having it after?

Idiot questions: How do I disconnect the solenoid? And what is considered good flow?
Disconnecting the fuel solenoid is pretty easy. Look on the injector pump, you will see a cylinder with a wire going to it. Unplug it. It's the only electrical thing on the pump.

As far as the fuel flow, I am interested in that myself....
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  #20  
Old August 28th, 2016, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
The fuel filter is normally after as it needs a fair bit of pressure to push the flow through the fine filter. Sucking through a fine filter can cause problems. You might want to show some pictures of the fuel piping to make sure it was done correctly. Everyone assumes a stock setup.

You disconnect the wire to the solenoid on the injection pump.

It should be pumping out of the line at a good rate.
Thanks. I will take some photos tomorrow. The webasto fuel line is plumbed in there too so it's not super easy to see the lines with that and the air filter canister.
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