It Runs! But now it won't start - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old August 4th, 2010, 12:15 AM
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Dr. Gonzo
1994 D90 #48
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Unhappy It Runs! But now it won't start

Can't a guy catch a break?

I finished the shocks last weekend, with some help, I finally got the brakes bled tonight. All was well.

Out of precaution, my friend filled up the radiator overflow reservoir, and managed to spill a half gallon of water all over my garage. No worries. She fired right up. We tested the brakes, and drove her around the neighborhood.

Engine sounded strong, brakes worked well, and the satisfaction of finally getting the truck running was making me feel pretty, pretty good.

Then my friend left and I went to put the truck back in the garage. First couple turns of the key were dead - no crank - just lights on the dash. Third try it started, and I backed it into the garage. I shut it down, and restarted a couple times to see if the problem was persistent. Then bad karma realized things were going too well...

The truck had started and was running, and when I turned the key off, some pump/motor in the engine area refused to shut off. It's loud. At first I thought it was a fan. Nope. It was coming from the open area on the passenger side of the engine. Like a motor or maybe a pump that wouldn't shut off. The only way it went off was to disconnect the battery. Even after 10 minutes, when I reconnected the battery, the motor/pump went back on. And the truck won't start, or even crank. Nothing but lights on the dash.

So now I have some motor or pump that won't stop running, and a truck that after 1.5 triumphant miles around the neighborhood, won't start.

Any ideas what might be causing this?

Jerod
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  #2  
Old August 4th, 2010, 08:18 AM
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kevin
1994 D90 300tdi #730, SIII 88
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Sounds like a bad starter solenoid , relay or ignition switch . Seems from what you describe your ignition circuit is hot and the pump is on , but the starter is not engaging
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  #3  
Old August 4th, 2010, 09:04 AM
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Dr. Gonzo
1994 D90 #48
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How can I troubleshoot? The electric motor/pump that won't stop running is kind of troubling.

BTW - the sound is like a dustbuster or coffee grinder. That can't be good.

So I'm thinking it's the starter or maybe more precisely the solenoid. They're located under the engine, right?

Would the relay keep this motor running that I hear, or would that be more a result of something fried on the starter/solenoid?

Still thinking......
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  #4  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:15 AM
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Charles Galpin
'94 D90 ST, '63 SeriesIIA
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Certainly sounds like the starter is somehow getting power. From the grinding description it sounds like the solenoid is engaging (or trying to). I would do the following, preferably with a helper

1. visually inspect the starter wires. Its at the bottom read of the engine block on the passenger side. Can't miss it. Make sure nothing looks like it's touching something it shouldn't.

2. Take a block of wood and place it on the solenoid and give it a sharp smack with a hammer. If its stuck disengaging, this should help. Reconnect the battery cable long enough to verify its stopped

3. Maybe pull the instrument binnacle and remove the ignition switch to make sure it's not stuck on

4. Lastly I'd pull the starter and have it checked at an auto parts store (they will do this for free). Also inspect the flywheel teeth for damage and the starter gear.

hth
charles
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  #5  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:19 AM
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Jeff Huff
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3. Maybe pull the instrument binnacle and remove the ignition switch to make sure it's not stuck on

If you are going to do this, make sure you read up on removal so you don't break the speedo cable! basically give yourself some slack from the engine compartment side before pulling the cluster
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  #6  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:26 AM
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Joshua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefhuf View Post
If you are going to do this, make sure you read up on removal so you don't break the speedo cable! basically give yourself some slack from the engine compartment side before pulling the cluster
Are the 94's different? The 95s have a white (almost coax-looking) end to it that you can squeeze with your fingers to release if from the speedo. Mine had enough slack to pull out the cluster enough to do this.
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  #7  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:28 AM
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Dr. Gonzo
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Thanks - I talked to Eric at Atlantic British. I walked him through the details of the problem, his diagnosis, based on the fact that it only stops when the battery is disconnected (and that everything else seems to be working properly) is that the solenoid is stuck. Tonight I'll do a little detective work.

Hopefully it's not as bad as I hoped.

Back to the jackstands....Damn, I was ready to start enjoying the truck!
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  #8  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:37 AM
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Charles Galpin
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If you are hearing a motor whirr with no grinding then the solenoid is stuck dis-engaged but then you have to figure out why the motor is running (loose/shorted wire at the solenoid or your ignition switch). The same tapping trick can free it up at least temporarily. But you said coffee grinder...
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  #9  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Are the 94's different? The 95s have a white (almost coax-looking) end to it that you can squeeze with your fingers to release if from the speedo. Mine had enough slack to pull out the cluster enough to do this.
The '94 is the same...in my case the slack on the cable was on the engine bay side so when I "carefully" pulled my instrument cluster out I heard that gut wrenching snap sound that I had been warned about. $120 later I was installing a nice pretty new cable!

If you ask Charles he will explain that I simply lack finesse for the detail work!
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  #10  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:42 AM
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Dr. Gonzo
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which might indicate the ignition switch is stuck on? Wouldn't the dash light indicators be stuck on too if the ignition switch was stuck?

With the underbody corrosion, I'd think there's something with the wires rather than the switch, but as always, that could be my desire not to disassemble the dash.

It's not a really nasty grinding, more like a dustbuster picking up dirt.
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  #11  
Old August 4th, 2010, 11:49 AM
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Charles Galpin
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Well, sounds like two issues

1. power getting to solenoid/starter when it shouldn't
2. solenoid not engaging properly

Better fix #1 or #2 will be a bitch once it engages properly.

The starter has a permanent heavy duty hot cable and then a smaller signal cable that goes to the solenoid which goes hot when you turn the key. Make sure these are not touching or loose. Then use a multimeter to check for power to the signal cable. If it's got voltage then you need to figure out why and it's likely the ignition switch.
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  #12  
Old August 4th, 2010, 12:40 PM
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Dustbuster picking up dirt is the heater fan. It is on the passenger side etc. For some reason my 1994 runs with the key off too. Put the switch to off and it will stop.

Take the battery out and charge it on a trickle charger with an ECU (to prevent over charging, battery tender is a common name brand of these).

The no start could be a bad solinoid or a dead spot on the starter, but it could also be a dead battery or just gummed up from lack of use.

Get AAA and drive it around for a while and get it up to temp (assuming all the fluids are in good shape).

Ron

PS fill the coolant through the plug in the radiator, not the overflow, if the radiator is empty, the overflow will do basically nothing. If it is really low, you need to do the proper fill procedure with the other fill plug above the PS valve cover too.
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  #13  
Old August 5th, 2010, 07:09 PM
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Joshua
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"Until next time…may your engines turn over, only when you turn the key."

Always a treat to read, Jerod. Who is the Jeff guy mentioned in your blog? Is he from the forum?
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  #14  
Old August 5th, 2010, 07:20 PM
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Dr. Gonzo
1994 D90 #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
"Until next time…may your engines turn over, only when you turn the key."

Always a treat to read, Jerod. Who is the Jeff guy mentioned in your blog? Is he from the forum?

thanks Josh!

Jeff is "Sommer_90" he's one of the only D-90 owners on the board that lives within a 20 mile radius of me (I think). His truck is pretty cool, and - I know you'll appreciate this - Rhinolined.

Hope he doesn't mind, I was very appreciative of him coming by to let me check out and drive his truck.

Jerod
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  #15  
Old August 5th, 2010, 07:25 PM
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Joshua
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Nice, so you've already driven a 300tdi
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  #16  
Old August 6th, 2010, 12:13 AM
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Dr. Gonzo
1994 D90 #48
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Yes, a TDI that was clearly meant for climbing straight up hills. Even in standard gearing, foot off the clutch in first gear, you could walk uphill next to the truck. I can't even imagine what it would be like in Low!

My V8 is almost a different animal in comparison. Between the more 'road friendly' tires and standard geared tranny, the bit I drove mine was much more refined and easier to drive.

It's still a very cool truck.
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