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  #361  
Old June 28th, 2007, 08:37 AM
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David Marchand
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Shall we have a pump tuning session?
Because it will be very different afterwards.
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  #362  
Old June 28th, 2007, 09:14 AM
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Andrew Clarke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surf110
I've heard that the 2.8 is "underpowered" for a 110.
Any feedback from 110/2.8 owners?
I think this question's basically been answered a bunch of times on this thread, the answer being "it depends on what you're looking for". For a reference though, I have a tweaked 200tdi in my 110 and I personally do not find it too slow. I run out of gearing around 120kph according to the GPS but never really drive it over 105-110. The 2.8 should be stronger all the way across the line than my engine, but my engine's good enough for me.

- Andrew.
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  #363  
Old June 28th, 2007, 09:42 AM
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mark kellgren
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I have had my 110 with the 2.8 since Nov 06 now, and couldn't be happier. I feel it just as powerful on the highway as the 3.9, and offers more torque on the low end. Around town I zip around in traffic without a problem. I have the 380 L series tranny, as Pendy, who did my install, recommended for a 110, not to consider an auto for any rover diesel. Not only does the ZF sap HP, but it was also designed and geared for the power curve of the v8's. that's why tdi's never came from the factory as far as I understand with the auto tranny.

slight mods to the gearing along the driveline somewhere would benefit the 2.8 in at least my case. it feels from around town like I could go with a slight higher gearing, as the rpm's are a bit higher than necessary to swiftly move the 110 with the 2.8. they are probably dead on for a 300 tdi, but with the extra torque in the 2.8, that power is just unutilized and creating more noise than necessary at higher rpm's for town traffic. I still have the OEM michelin X's on mine, and getting ready to swap to 255/85's, which will in effect lower my rpms' and help with this problem.

As for cooling, give it to pendy. you might find in previous posts of mine, that right now, with Pendy's uber radiator and intercooler work on my truck, that I run too cool. I find that at idle and around town I run after a few minutes at around 160 deg, and on the highway after about 20 minutes it will warm up to 180-190 in the summer. since last Nov, for around town, since this is my daily driver, I had to keep a radiator muff on to let the engine warm up in a reasonable time. I only took it off at the beginning of this month after it started hitting 90+ deg here in charlotte. If I left the radiator muff on, I would be running around right now at around 200 deg. also, something completely different from every V8 I have ever owned: if I am running on the highway or high speed for sometime and the temp warms to 180-190, if I stop at idle, in about 2 minutes it will drop back down to 150-160. my experience with V8's is the complete opposite; cooling at highway and warming at idle. I'll take the effect I have now for trail work... normal operating range for the 2.8, per the operator manual I have, is 180-220 deg F.

There's my 3 cents.
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  #364  
Old June 29th, 2007, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junkyddog11
I have one in the shop right now that is 2.8 w/ auto and is possibly one of the slowest things I have ever driven. It is not designed for speed / performance, but it definately needs help, with both power output and overheating issues (that is why it is here). Has trouble maintaining highway speeds and overheats when doing so.

Not to worry though as we have a cure for all of that.
Matt - I'm curious what transfer case is in this 110 (1.2 or 1.4) and the axles ratios. My 110 has the 2.8/ZF/1.4/3.54/33's. The engine is completely stock (no tweaking, yet) with stock 300 Tdi intercooler and radiator. I'd also consider it slow, but it's been so long since I've driven it with the old 3.9 that I can't make a comparison. I can maintain 65 on easy grades, but have to downshift for steeper grades. I haven't had any cooling problems. I have an accurate Datcon gauge, and 95% of the time, the temp is 200 deg F. The highest I've ever seen is 215 degF in 90+ degF weather climbing a long grade. EGT's max out around 900 degF so it could use some additional fueling (maybe a reason I'm not seeing any overheating).

Mark - I find it interesting that your temps drop so low (150-160) after the engine has already warmed up. It's normal for diesels to not produce much heat at idle, but I would think that the temps would be maintained (even with an oversized radiator) if your thermostat is closing properly. I would check that out. BTW, I should be getting the Pendy uber radiator and intercooler soon so I'll find out then if I see a similar pattern.
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  #365  
Old June 29th, 2007, 07:31 AM
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This 110 has the stock 1:4 t-case and 3:54 gears w/33" tyres.

It has a stock 300tdi ZF (yes they do make it and no its not a good tranny for this truck)

Not to say that this truck (or should I say the 2.8) absolutely doesn't have enough power, it (the 2.8) just needs a little more cooling capacity to fully utilize it, and will perform better with a manual tranny.

If they all ran at the right temp Pendy (and myself) wouldn't be pulling our hair out trying to get all these "uber" rad / intercooler combo's under the bonnet.

Dave, not only are we messing with the pump and wastegate but I've got some tweaked injectors that make a ridiculous difference. Blowin' smoke.
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new expansion complete. Not only are we the only Rover shop in Eliot Maine...now we're also the biggest.

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  #366  
Old June 29th, 2007, 10:11 AM
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mark kellgren
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Pendy, you can chime in here at any time.

Ryan,
Pendy told me that there is a bypass in the cooling system that is going around the thermostat, and that he is working on a solution for installing a second thermostat for it.

for what its' worth, I just went on vacation last week, and traveled 5 hours with a full load there and back again. no issues with maintaining 75 constant speed the whole way. I could have maintained 80, but it's still pretty loud until I get my soundproofing in (Second Skin Firewall new formula is on the way!), and we weren't in a rush. On hills with a full load, I dropped down to 65. The larger tires again would help alot with bringing the rpms down and quieting the drive.

I have no problems with using my radiator muff when it runs cool all year long. I got the RN radiator muff, cut out a hole for the intercooler intake on the driver side, and keep it handy, so if I ever go into water, I can put it and help protect the radiator. I'll be adding a cutoff switch for the electic fan as well for fording. There's no down side to running cool, it's easier to warm up then cool down.
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  #367  
Old June 29th, 2007, 04:48 PM
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Brian Love
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my $0.02

I am a big fan of the uber rad...but i live in AZ; I need all the cooling I can get. Like Mark said, it is easier to warm on up than cool it down.

Overall, I like the consistant gas mileage. On my worst days I still do better than my 3.9 (and I still have the auto tranny). I am running 33"s and still have my roof rack on, so I am not expecting warp preformance (that is why I have a CBR600 - when I have to be there yesterday).

As for you Mark - damn you and rubbing in the weekend trips...my diesel powered trucks trips are boring - but in some circles that is considered a good thing. I am going to have the interior refreshed this deployment....can you send me some interior picts of Eileen's truck, I want to use it as a guide.
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  #368  
Old June 29th, 2007, 05:24 PM
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Matt - Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure why mine doesn't run hotter. I actually expected it to since I'm basically out in the desert. And my maiden run on the 2.8 was from SoCal to Utah through the heat of NV.

I have mixed feelings about the ZF. I bought mine from Ashcroft, and it was built for the 2.8. It works fine and shifts well (now that I've found the sweet spot on the kickdown cable adjustment). But I wonder how much power it's sucking from the 2.8. My preference is a manual, but I had recurrent clutch problems on my last diesel and heard similar stories from other diesel owners. My plan is to go with the uber rad/intercooler, and tweak the 2.8. If that doesn't wake it up, I'll probably give the R380 a try.

Mark - I should've know that Pendy was all over that excessive cooling issue. For me it's a concern since I plan on running VO - I need to keep the engine at optimum operating temps as much as possible. I'm impressed that you can run 75 most of the time. If I could do that on my trips to Utah/CO, I'd be really happy. There are some seriously long grades from here to there. I think on one, I was in 3rd gear for about 1/2 an hour.

Brian - I'm with you on having more than enough cooling. I fought cooling issues the entire time I had my 6.5. Which is why I was expecting them as well with the 2.8. Once I turn up the fuel and boost, I'm sure I'll be glad I have the uber twins. BTW - took a demo ride on a Hypermotard today. Now that's performance!
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  #369  
Old July 5th, 2007, 11:30 AM
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Brian Love
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I was considering switching to a manual transmission (even though the 2.8 was made for the ZF). I didn't see myself going on the trips that would require 'missing HP'. The biggest reason is I am a bit lazy and the traffic we have in Phoenix might cause me to test my ARB...

I really haven't noticed a big differences.

Mark - you drove both (auto vs Manual) any input?
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  #370  
Old July 6th, 2007, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roverowner
(even though the 2.8 was made for the ZF).
????
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new expansion complete. Not only are we the only Rover shop in Eliot Maine...now we're also the biggest.

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  #371  
Old July 6th, 2007, 09:29 AM
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mark kellgren
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Matt,

Since Brian is in Iraq and might be too busy to respond, I'll answer for him, since he owns my previous truck. That ZF he has was modified and tuned for the 2.8 by pendy during install.

I much prefer the manual, but the Auto has 3 advantages I miss.

1) I can drink a coffee in traffic,
2) I can talk on a cell phone in traffic,
3) I don't require a wading plug when fording.

Pendy strongly advised me to stay with the manual for a 2.8 or 300tdi in a 110. he said an auto in a 90 is not big deal, but a 110 under full load needs everything available, and I would regret an auto for this application.

Pendy the great has spoken...
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  #372  
Old July 7th, 2007, 12:16 AM
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I see two advantages to the automatic - 1) convenience in traffic and 2) no clutch disc to fall apart. The first is not that big a deal to me, but it was nice when I was stuck in LA and Vegas traffic. The second one is my big hang up. After removing my last manual 3 times for clutch problems, I just couldn't convince myself to trust the R380 (even with a D130 clutch disc). So I'm going to do everything I can to make the ZF live-able, and if I don't succeed, then at least I gave it a shot and can rationalize going to the R380.
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  #373  
Old July 7th, 2007, 02:18 AM
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Brian Love
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sound logic.
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  #374  
Old July 7th, 2007, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roverowner
(even though the 2.8 was made for the ZF). ?
I was referencing the 2.8 being made for the ZF

Quite familiar with "tuning" the ZF for diesel (its not just the 2.8)

Have a 2.8 110 with "tuned" autobox in the shop right now. Even with the tweaked motor it is awfully slow by American standards, yet once underway seems fine, although I wouldn't want to try and use it as a commuter vehicle. Then again that is not what it was designed for. This truck has an autobox due to the owner no longer being able to use a clutch pedal.

personally I'd run the 5 speed any day and don't mind

1. driving while not drinking coffee
2. driving and not talking on my cell phone
3. stopping and putting the wading plug in the tranny at the same time as the timing cover wading plug, and having a sip of coffee and answering the voice mail....
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new expansion complete. Not only are we the only Rover shop in Eliot Maine...now we're also the biggest.

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  #375  
Old July 7th, 2007, 10:04 AM
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Brian Love
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Sorry, I knew what I meant and it clearly was not what was typed.

The bit of research that I did before making the jump suggested that the engine was desiged with the/an automatic in mind (not including all the other trucks the 2.8 is in). I was under the impression that the 300Tdi couldn't effectively push an auto trans. If I am wrong, so be it. I made the conversion for other reasons, and the 2.8 was chosen because it was going to be a new engine; not a thank-God-the-engine-wasn't-damaged-in-the-wreck engine.

Like I said before, I am lazy and regretability don't plan/have time for the places that the powerloss and/or manual transmission would be needed. I need to slow down anyway; my CBR600 will get me there yesterday if that is an issue.
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  #376  
Old July 23rd, 2007, 01:31 PM
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Peter Carey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Sakurada
Matt - I'm curious what transfer case is in this 110 (1.2 or 1.4) and the axles ratios. My 110 has the 2.8/ZF/1.4/3.54/33's. The engine is completely stock (no tweaking, yet) with stock 300 Tdi intercooler and radiator. I'd also consider it slow, but it's been so long since I've driven it with the old 3.9 that I can't make a comparison. I can maintain 65 on easy grades, but have to downshift for steeper grades. I haven't had any cooling problems. I have an accurate Datcon gauge, and 95% of the time, the temp is 200 deg F. The highest I've ever seen is 215 degF in 90+ degF weather climbing a long grade. EGT's max out around 900 degF so it could use some additional fueling (maybe a reason I'm not seeing any overheating).

Mark - I find it interesting that your temps drop so low (150-160) after the engine has already warmed up. It's normal for diesels to not produce much heat at idle, but I would think that the temps would be maintained (even with an oversized radiator) if your thermostat is closing properly. I would check that out. BTW, I should be getting the Pendy uber radiator and intercooler soon so I'll find out then if I see a similar pattern.
Egads, I'm behind on this thread. I've had similar experiences as Ryan with a new install recently. It's first trip was up and over the North Cascades and it bogged to about 45 in 3rd up those longer slopes. I have the 2.8 with ZF/1.2:1/standard difs and 235/85 tires.....speed was measured with GPS. It could be the 1.2 that might be holding me back, but on slight slopes I sometimes have to drop back to 3rd, things you'd wouldn't think about doing that on. It is slow, but I still like it. I'll be heading down I-5 from Seattle this week and will be the first time at real highway speeds. Just changed the oil after the first 1000 miles as well.

Temps are about the same as Ryan, 190-200 normal and then pushing it up long grades gets me to about 215 but not much more. I am missing the fan shroud and I also want to hook up the twin AC fans to a manual switch to help. I have the HD 300TDI radiator/intercooler combo. My EGT gauge is further down stream than most I think, I should have put it closer to the turbo. My temps rarely get to 600 so I know it's not quite close enough. I'm thinking just 2-3 inches after the turbo?

As for the automatic....last weekend was the first time I hooked up my hi/low linkage (not locking yet, just hi/low) and WOW does that SOB PULL!! You ahve to stand on the break hard to keep it from moving in low. I was able to idle up my slightly steep driveway. I got into some loose gravel and had a big old grin when I was able to totally control wheel spin with just slight throttle. Heck, most of the time it was a case of just letting off the brake. When I got into steep sand it was nice to see the wheels spin ever so slowly and know you lost traction. At that point, diging out to put something under the tire is a lot easier than a fast spin with a higher RPM gas engine. I would like the added efficiency of a manual but I'm happy with the auto for now. I'm just lazy though.

I haven't hooked up my tach yet though. Any hints on where to plug it into with the stock tachometer?

PS, the nicest thing is crawling under teh truck and not seeing it leaking all over!! it's weird at first, but then you get used to it. :P
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  #377  
Old July 26th, 2007, 07:02 PM
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Peter - There's a "W" terminal on the alternator that's for the tach signal. It's really hard to see with the vacuum pump there. My tach uses an external sensor so I didn't use the "W" signal, but I ran a wire anyway since it's so hard to get in there. Not sure if this signal will work with the stock tach or not, but it's worth a try. Or get a tach like mine that uses the external sensor that mounts on the case of the alternator.

On the EGT sensor location, I located mine right where the downtube makes the bend out of the turbo. It gets up around 900 degF so it seems to be reading fairly well. I presume the stock fueling wouldn't allow the temps to get much higher than 1000-1100 degF pre-turbo.

Interesting comments on your gearing/speeds. On most interstate grades, I can almost wind out the engine in 3rd. Which means I can do 60, but the engine is really humming. So I'll run closer to 50 just to relax the engine. I was thinking that the 1.2 TC might help me run at 60-65 in 3rd without winding the engine up so much. But it doesn't sound like that's the case for you.

Anyway, it's good to hear that you're finally on the road.
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  #378  
Old July 26th, 2007, 09:56 PM
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For reference, I run my 300tdi with a 1.2 box. It will pull decent grades in 4th gear at 55-60mph, but I'll drive the EGT's close to 900 if I keep at it for more than a few minutes. I can run 85 with no problems on flat freeway (but I dont usually cruise higher than 60-65). The MPG is around 24-25 at 65mph and staying under 650 degrees. 80 mph results in 20-21 mpg and 850 degrees EGT. Rolling terrain typically requires going uphill in 4th and picking up speeds on the downhills.
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  #379  
Old July 27th, 2007, 11:06 AM
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I'd suggest that you guys put your EGT probe in the exhaust manifold before the turbo.
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  #380  
Old July 27th, 2007, 11:16 AM
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I don't have an EGT hooked up....what is the benefit of that vs. just the water temp gauge? is there a Correct-hand drive console that I can put in my Disco that will support additional gauges?
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