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  #241  
Old February 16th, 2006, 03:01 PM
Michael
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Michael
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Stephen:
No venting here. I am not complaining to anyone. The instructions and support from M&D are excellent.

I wrote: "I am surprised that the whole factory workshop manually does not stress the importance of the oil level."

Then You wrote: "As for the factory manual the online version states the oil is to be checked every day." Which was a pretty redundant statement.

I write: " Where does it say: "CAUTION or WARNING" : Do not overfill or engine oil may enter combustion chamber and may cause engine to run out of control causing severe engine damage?
Every internal combustion Engine Manual ever printed on ths planet probably says to check oil level every day."

Now, out of nowhere, you write " You pour 5 or 6 EXTRA quarts /liters of oil into any engine you gonna have problems. You made a mistake it seems."

You keep making condesending statements and then expecting me not to say anything? How do you know how many extra liters were in the engine and what the dipstick reading was before filling with oil. Please check out my posts on the HS2800 yahoo message board to find out.

No hard feelings, just don't think you can say anything you want here.
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  #242  
Old February 16th, 2006, 03:41 PM
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Jim Cheney
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I dont see much here thats acusational at all actually - I think Stephen is defensive because there has been 2.8 drama here before. To his credit, Stephen has persevered through a lot of 2.8 strangeness in the last couple years - its tough being a pioneer and he's got some arrows in his back.
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  #243  
Old February 16th, 2006, 04:29 PM
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Peace?

Hi everyone.

This thread is great and so is the HS2.8L. As I have posted here and on other boards, I have accepted this mistake on my part, and have went ahead and purchased another engine that M&D is supplying.

I am not sure yet what is damaged in this engine, but I will find out and hopefully it is repairable. As I said, oil has contaminated the coolant circuit, so something blew somewhere to cause the cross-over. However, coolant did not get into the oil as per an oil analysis (sent oil sample for testing).

Pendy: Thanks for your interest in the engine. I am not sure yet what I will do with it. I was originally going to keep, repair it, and keep it as a spare. I think it would also make a great centerpiece on display in the living room as there are no signs of damage on the outside or leaks.

Best
Michael
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  #244  
Old February 16th, 2006, 05:50 PM
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Bradlee Duncan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
I think it would also make a great centerpiece on display in the living room as there are no signs of damage on the outside or leaks.

Best
Michael
Now that's the best idea I've heard in a long time! Love it!..... hmmm, just gotta talk the wife into it...
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  #245  
Old February 17th, 2006, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW_Canada
Jim you having a bad day??
Do not $hit on me.-

-----------------The way you speak to people here and elsewhere brings more $hit upoun yourself then I could ever give you. Michael said it best. Condenscending. I think your condenscending tone and content is annoying and unflatering to yourself.----------------------------


My reply is in bold.

Real world as you know the engine will take some heat for a while.Not that I would ever run one at that temp or suggest it be done. THAT IS WHY I DO NOT SUGGEST BOOSTING THE FUEL LEVELS.



I do not accept this. I have been aware of those specifications for a couple years. It reminds me of when they used to make the engine without glow plugs. Another engineering debacle. Now are you stating it is my fault they came with no glowplugs? They were OEM engines for BRAZIL and the rest of South America.Why put glow plugs in an engine where the coolest it gets in winter is 50 to 60 F.
Your armchair analysis is unrealistic about the cooling system needed for the more demanding of these engine installations.

------------------This really is the base of all our drama here. You have never even installed one of these engines to my knowledge. I wonder if you have even driven a vehicle powered by one. So all your knowledge is really armchair analysis.--------------------------


Jim as you know the heat output is greater than the 300TDI so why would anyone ever use a 300TDI rad when they are known for over heating at the best of times? I have never suggested that a 300TDI or the HD version of it was the best to use.

-----------------Nor have I.----------------------



-------------------------------Listen up. I really am tired of holding your hand through all this. Tempuratures from 230 to 248 are unacceptable to me. Even if the cooling system does not boil over. That is what I am taking you to task on . I have never used a stock 300 tdi radiator in a 2.8l installatiton and do not reccomend anyone to. I aspire to level off tempuratures at less then 200 F at full load highway speeds in a couple applications. When I get it done I'll let you know.

I am not blaming you for the lack of glow plugs on the engines. You flatter yourself really. I am blaming the engineers and saying that they are not infallible.--------------------


When I am happy with my resolution you are welcome to critique it. It is nice to hear your reports from the engineering people associated with the engine. But realworld experience overshadows everything from the drafting room, in my opinion. I would like to hear some warantee repair tickets quoted on this engine installed in the Ford Ranger in S. America. That would mean more to me then engineering.
specfications.

JP
Jim you have questions for Ford of Brazil
https://www.ford.com.br/Default.asp
I have no contacts there sorry.

--------Thanks for the contacts----------------------

Now if you want to list questions for MWM-International warranty I can have them forwarded.

PS I left two voice messages on your phone about the mail I sent you last week.

-----------------I replied to your email saying it would take a few days. I got your voice messages. Sometimes people are busy, have a little patience. It may take even longer if I have to keep this up.----------------------

Stephen
[/QUOTE]
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  #246  
Old February 17th, 2006, 10:25 AM
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A break for peace and Harmony

Lets go for Peace and Harmony.

The best of luck on getting those engines to run cooler.

Stephen


[QUOTE=pendy]Jim you have questions for Ford of Brazil
https://www.ford.com.br/Default.asp
I have no contacts there sorry.

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  #247  
Old February 17th, 2006, 10:35 AM
artm
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Arthur Maravelis
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What are these using for radiators in stock configurations? Knowing the size and type of radiator will get you the capacity. If the Ranger has room for a huge radiator, and uses it, and if the engine requires that much cooling capacity then, assuming you can't physically fit it in a Rover, I would think that's an insurmountable problem.

This shouldn't be a matter of luck.
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  #248  
Old February 17th, 2006, 11:09 AM
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Hello Art

All I can quote is the amount of water/coolant the water pump can move per minute. Then the amount of heat the engine gives off to the cooling fluid. I can ask Johan in Holland what size rad cooling system particulars they put into the Bowler that ran in the Lisbon Dakar Rally. Will ask Marcello about what they have in the Rangers also. I know Pendy is working on a new Rad system at this time. Will post answers here.

Stephen
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  #249  
Old February 17th, 2006, 02:39 PM
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Will adding a bigger oil cooler to the existing one help?
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  #250  
Old February 17th, 2006, 05:06 PM
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jim pendleton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
What are these using for radiators in stock configurations? Knowing the size and type of radiator will get you the capacity. ------------------That is the information I have searched for since first becoming aware of these engines 4-5 years ago. As well as the cooling circuit path.---------------If the Ranger has room for a huge radiator, and uses it, and if the engine requires that much cooling capacity then, assuming you can't physically fit it in a Rover, I would think that's an insurmountable problem.

This shouldn't be a matter of luck.

The cooling circuit iteslf offers a host of problems. As you know the design is similar to your 300 tdi. But they have an extra outlet for the oil cooler that comes out low on the block. All conversions I am aware of have just routed this back to the water pump through the fill line from the expansion tank. The heater core already does this. And between the two circuits recuirculating without cooling, overall cooling suffers. I think a lack of radiator size capacity and cooling of this extra outlet are the solution. So I plan to route the oil cooler outlet into the passenger side tank of the radiator. It will benifit from passing through half the radiator before recurculating to the engine. Some early truck cooling circuits made a similar path.

Anyone reading this that implements my plan and solves their cooling delema is welcome to donate to my favorite charity, me.

See the extra size of the radiator? That and its row design and core amount should double its cooling from a 300 tdi. But the trick is not to overcool the unit and detract from engine efficiency. So trial and error take place.

Ultimately I hope to mate a suitable intercooler to make use of the space changes and gain full airflow. The way I implement this, there is room for a condensor as well. But I would mount the condensor between the radiator and intercooler to give the intercooler first right of cooling and maximize its heat loss.

So to me its more then just putting a honking big radiator in place and overdo it.

JP

Follow-up Post:

Give Peace a chance
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  #251  
Old February 17th, 2006, 06:18 PM
artm
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Arthur Maravelis
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1. Are there overheating issues in stock configs (not conversions)? If not, then those setups should be examined.

2. Why not use an aluminum radiator?

3. Why not use a dedicated oil cooler and get that out of the radiator?

4. Perhaps a waterless coolant can help. Higher boiling point, no vapor problems, less pressure, non-corrosive, long change life.

Jim,

What's the thickness of that IC? I'm still looking for one for the Tdi - with AC. I assumed the typical 2.5" ones are too thick. Is that yours or Allard's?
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  #252  
Old February 17th, 2006, 09:03 PM
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David Shechter
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It's an AlliSport phase 2 made with a 45mm core instead of the usual 60mm core.
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  #253  
Old February 18th, 2006, 12:46 AM
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jim pendleton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
1. Are there overheating issues in stock configs (not conversions)? If not, then those setups should be examined. I have said this a few times here already. I have not seen the stock configuration, or spoke to anyone who has yet. And no word on high coolant tempuratures stock application. Stephen gave a link to investigate. Try it.

2. Why not use an aluminum radiator?All the custom radiator makers I contacted here in the US use glued cores which are a disaster in 4x4 diesel applicattion. And aluminum are not very serviceable. The bypass in the circuit will have to be addressed as well.

3. Why not use a dedicated oil cooler and get that out of the radiator?Pay attention. As I said before, the oil cooler is attached to the engine block and exits water from the block back to the cooling system. It is not located in the radiator for this engine. I will try to snap a picture for you.

4. Perhaps a waterless coolant can help. Higher boiling point, no vapor problems, less pressure, non-corrosive, long change life.wichcraft, it doesn't help here

Jim,

What's the thickness of that IC? I'm still looking for one for the Tdi - with AC. I assumed the typical 2.5" ones are too thick. Is that yours or Allard's?
David answered your question about the intercooler.
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  #254  
Old February 19th, 2006, 04:21 PM
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The word from Europe on cooling

Hello Gentlemen
Got an Email back from Holland on their 2.8 TGV sales and installs that are done. Please note English is not his first langauge. I did correct some spelling.
Begin Quote:
The Bowler had a radiator of a V8 gas engine. This performed well, the efficiency of the 2.8 (and of any diesel) is much higher compared to a petrol engine with the same HP,so you can work with a smaller radiator. The radiator cooled down the water temp with about 10 degree.

We normally fit the radiator of a LR 300Tdi in front of the engine. Clients of us have been to the Sahara with temp. of 45-50 degree Celsius without any problem. Most important thing is of course the fan and how it is positioned in front of the radiator with the correct shroud which has no air leakage or air recirculation.

For those that do not do Celsius 50 C equals 132 F.


Continued
I read about all your applications in different kind of trucks. I am wondering, why don't you recommend the LR radiator/intercooler assy ? First of all you know the cooling capacity is enough and tested. The dimensions are rather small and I am sure it will fit in any truck. All the pipework and hoses are already made and genuine available from LR. Pipework for intercooler is available but also very important the shroud for the fan exactly fits the fan. A complete assy of radiator and intercooler and hoses roughly would cost around 600-700 Euro, in bigger quantities I might be able to give you better prices. With individually made items you never can get these prices.


Most important thing about the complete assy is that you won't get any problems with all clients finding out their own rad and intercooler with all the risks that these might not be from the right dimensions and/or installed wrong. We sell many engine (between 5000-6000 every year) but never allow a client to find out his own radiator and installation of this. The risk is much to big that things go wrong. Please be aware that this is going to happen if you let everybody make his own radiator. I can not say enough that the radiator is the most important item with installing an engine, and in combination with this the fanshroud.

regards
Johan

So for some reason the 300TDI cooling system works in Europe. I would think they have sold close to 20,000 plus engines. (wouldn't that be nice Pendy). So what is the difference in application between here and there? Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanking one and all!!!

Stephen
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  #255  
Old February 19th, 2006, 09:47 PM
artm
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Arthur Maravelis
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So, they use a pusher fan? A puller is more efficient so I would go with that, since you'll need as much space in front of the radiator for other stuff.

The question is has anyone here simply used the stock 300 Tdi setup?
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  #256  
Old February 20th, 2006, 12:46 AM
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Yes the stock radiator has been used. It and its heavy duty version usually do the job. I belive Johan was describing the position of the puller fan and using a Land Rover 300tdi style fan shroud. The fact that they used a V8 radiator in a racing application shows a need for extra cooling.

A big part of the problem is the stock tempurature gauge. It has a comfort zone that holds the needle in the middle until critically hot tempuratures are achieved. So many times vehicles are running in excess of 210F without the gauge registering a problem.

The application that seems hardest to cool effectively is the defender with automatic transmission. And highway speeds in excess of 70mph, especially associated with steep grades bring on the highest tempuratures. That is probably not a very common combination in Europe. An automatic defender. Or the speeds traveled with US utility vehicles.

As far as the vehicles cooling systems performing in the Sahara. I would have to confirm the speeds that they were traveling. As the cooling system effectiveness does not seem to be compromised at speeds less then 55-60.

Another point I might make is that the engines are not boiling coolant when these excess cooling tempuratures are realized. But the problem as I see it is long term reliability and shortened lifespan. The problem is very much like we saw in early Dodge trucks with the Cummins engine in them. And a larger cooling sytem and intercooler eventually found there way into the newer body style trucks.

Yes 20,000 units is a lot.

JP
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  #257  
Old February 20th, 2006, 01:32 AM
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Hello Jim
So the whole cooling system has to be re-engineered for American driving habits.

So it seems that the easiest way to fix the whole over heating problem is not to speed with your Land Rover. Sorry I had to say that!!!!

Jim keep us posted on the progress you make.

OH yes just getting the ground work in place for a container load of engines to hit Baltimore, anyone want pricing to your Zip code?
We look after all the paperwork,Taxes,duties,customs and shipping arrangements.

The 2.8 TGV now goes into 50 plus different vehicles,
with our adapters built by Advance Adapters.
Stephen Cahill
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902 229 3778
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  #258  
Old February 20th, 2006, 01:18 PM
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Scott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW_Canada
Hello Jim
So the whole cooling system has to be re-engineered for American driving habits.
Surely this motor is in use somewhere in Oz? They would have the same cooling dilemma that we have stateside I would guess? If so, someone over there should be in the know wrt good sized intercoolers.
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  #259  
Old February 20th, 2006, 01:31 PM
artm
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So, in the end I'll have a 2.8/ZF that:

1. may not be a perfect fit (performance-wise) even with a Tdi ZF.

2. may not be a reliable fit (longevity).

3. will not be a good fit to regularly do 70.


With diesel being as much as 20% higher than premium, 40% higher than regular, I may just be better off with a SBC EFI and a 700R4. Heck, if I can get 20MPG out of that setup in a 110 I will not give up a lifetime of fun driving just to have a diesel up front!

I think it's time we considered a REAL diesel for use with an auto. Still though, I'll take that Chevy 350.
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  #260  
Old February 20th, 2006, 02:20 PM
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Pendy will fix it

Give Pendy a bit of time
He will fix it.

Stephen


Quote:
Originally Posted by artm
So, in the end I'll have a 2.8/ZF that:

1. may not be a perfect fit (performance-wise) even with a Tdi ZF.

2. may not be a reliable fit (longevity).

3. will not be a good fit to regularly do 70.


With diesel being as much as 20% higher than premium, 40% higher than regular, I may just be better off with a SBC EFI and a 700R4. Heck, if I can get 20MPG out of that setup in a 110 I will not give up a lifetime of fun driving just to have a diesel up front!

I think it's time we considered a REAL diesel for use with an auto. Still though, I'll take that Chevy 350.
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