International 2.8 or 300TDI for rebuild - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old February 16th, 2011, 04:38 PM
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michael
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International 2.8 or 300TDI for rebuild

Looking for advice on converting a '95 ST from the gas guzzler to diesel. Im torn between which engine to go with. Price isnt a big deal, but what would be best, the International 2.8 or a 300TDI? thanks!
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  #2  
Old February 16th, 2011, 04:45 PM
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mark kellgren
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In my opinion, if I were to do it all over again, I would go with a 300tdi, and get the M&D kit to convert it to a 2.8 compatible engine. you gain the same power, but parts availability worldwide is much improved. as example, if you are on a trip and you blow a head gasket, you can call RN and get a new one shipped to you overnight. some of the important 2.8 parts must come from UK direct (or if we can ever source parts from Brazil). 2.8 shares many parts with 300 TDI (maybe 40%) to include many regular service items, but a 300tdi mod kit will give you more like 90%.

alternatively, you could go with the EVO kit and just upgrade the turbo.

2.8 gets about 18mpg (crate setting) where you are getting low 20's with 300tdi. power-mpg..it's a tradeoff. I'm just beginning my "journey" to tuning the injector pump, and I've learned so far how to make my mpg worse (running webasto all the time is throwing the figures), but the 2.8 pulls very well. As discussed, I still don't exactly know what turbo lag is like, as I've never driven a 300tdi.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 04:56 PM
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michael
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Great info, its good to get an opinion from someone currently using the 2.8. From asking around, I had heard that it was the way to go. However, if the 300 gets better mpg and has more readily available parts, that seems to be the better choice. I don't plan on doing any towing with the rig, so its mainly a daily driver.
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  #4  
Old February 16th, 2011, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinerover View Post
However, if the 300 gets better mpg and has more readily available parts, that seems to be the better choice. I don't plan on doing any towing with the rig, so its mainly a daily driver.
I doubt the mileage is actually different, if you drove them side by side the same.... You get worse mileage because you drive faster. The same will happen if you soup up the 300TDI.

My best advice is to go and drive these engine first before deciding anything...
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  #5  
Old February 16th, 2011, 11:19 PM
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Carl Jonsson
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What about a TD5?
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  #6  
Old February 17th, 2011, 12:18 AM
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Geoff M
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Even though price is not an issue...

What is the range of prices for these engines if you buy them in a crate?
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  #7  
Old February 17th, 2011, 12:29 AM
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TD5 is great but then you have to deal with electronics. Not really sure where you can buy a td5 in a crate either.

If you were wondering prices:
http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/
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  #8  
Old February 17th, 2011, 12:46 AM
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expensive
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  #9  
Old February 17th, 2011, 02:49 AM
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ECR supplies "crate" engines i think, looking at their project rovers pages, it certainly looks like they do.

From what i hear, the 2.8 can be hard to get bits for, but surely there must still be a supply of stuff out there? likewise for the 300Tdi... this thing hasn't been in production for over 12 years. although there are still lots of bits available new here, direct from LR.

The Td5 isn't that expensive. OK, the initial bulk of the engine. over here a good used one goes for about 1500

To fit it into a defender, you need a fair amount of parts (bulkhead loom, radiator,intercooler,pipes,exhaust,fuel tank & pipes,ECU,alarm ECU,dash pod with guages) but you do end up with a very good engine, good mileage, one that will work at altitude without smoking or going powerless.
can be tuned to 190bhp easily without clouds of smoke (mine is just like that, brilliant!)

It's no more complex than a 3.9 EFI V8. and won't stop in water (unless the ECU gets drowned, but they can be relocated)
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  #10  
Old February 17th, 2011, 07:31 AM
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You are in florida? How far from orlando?

Come check out our 2.8 conversion.

Has lots of power getting 20-26mpg. We will soon be stocking parts for this engine so that will no longer be an issue. (not that they break very often)

give Eddie a call 407-595-4469 www.e2orlando.com
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  #11  
Old February 17th, 2011, 08:43 AM
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mark kellgren
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There is no issue getting parts from M&D; they have everything on hand and ship worldwide. I just get nervous sometimes about having all my eggs in one basket.

There would probably be alot more options for sourcing 2.8 parts, particularly right here in the Americas IF you spoke portugese (that's a big if). Ford put the 2.8 into the Ford Ranger as a production model (as a matter of fact my parts manual is for a Ford Ranger), but it was only sold as a production vehicle in Brasil I believe. I have also used google translator to try and find online parts retailers in Brazil, but no luck so far. I think most S. American auto parts suppliers don't have online shopping.

As a point of reference, I just ordered a gasket kit for my 2.8 from M&D. It only took a week to get to my door. The bill to my card from M&D was $261.23. There are two package gasket sets available for the 2.8; basically an upper and lower. The upper is the one I bought, because I may need to do my head gasket (jury is still out). The upper set included the head gasket, valve cover gasket, thermostat housing gasket, manifold gasket, O ring for oil cap and o ring for dipstick (I think). Of those, only the head, valve and manifold are unique to 2.8.

The other gasket set is lower engine, and from what I have researched and understand, is entirely composed of 300 tdi gaskets. for that reason, as needed I can source all those here cheaply and worldwide.

I have been doing a lot of work on parts compatibility research to source as much of the 2.8 service items domestically as possible. At some point in the near future, I'm going to pull the belts off and try to match them up with a napa equivalent. I'm starting to feel better, now that I know what is 300 tdi and LR original. If someone had done all this research work in advance, I would feel much better about having AND maintaining a 2.8 here in the US, but you can't find this information anywhere on the net (at least in English). At some point I'm going to post everything I learned (on this site of course).

What keeps me up at night that I am working to resolve is that cross country trip in my 110, and I have some engine failure half way across the country and get towed into some po-dunk garage, and trying to have to source parts at that point.

btw, the entire upper valve assembly, not include the head, is entirely 300 tdi part no's!
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  #12  
Old February 17th, 2011, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinerover View Post
Looking for advice on converting a '95 ST from the gas guzzler to diesel. Im torn between which engine to go with. Price isnt a big deal, but what would be best, the International 2.8 or a 300TDI? thanks!
Keep what you have. It is not cost effective to change to diesel.
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  #13  
Old February 17th, 2011, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Keep what you have. It is not cost effective to change to diesel.
Very true statement. However, I know a few people that just want to have a diesel, and for no other point than that. It's just a preference.
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  #14  
Old February 17th, 2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
There is no issue getting parts from M&D; they have everything on hand and ship worldwide. I just get nervous sometimes about having all my eggs in one basket.

There would probably be alot more options for sourcing 2.8 parts, particularly right here in the Americas IF you spoke portugese (that's a big if). Ford put the 2.8 into the Ford Ranger as a production model (as a matter of fact my parts manual is for a Ford Ranger), but it was only sold as a production vehicle in Brasil I believe. I have also used google translator to try and find online parts retailers in Brazil, but no luck so far. I think most S. American auto parts suppliers don't have online shopping.

As a point of reference, I just ordered a gasket kit for my 2.8 from M&D. It only took a week to get to my door. The bill to my card from M&D was $261.23. There are two package gasket sets available for the 2.8; basically an upper and lower. The upper is the one I bought, because I may need to do my head gasket (jury is still out). The upper set included the head gasket, valve cover gasket, thermostat housing gasket, manifold gasket, O ring for oil cap and o ring for dipstick (I think). Of those, only the head, valve and manifold are unique to 2.8.

The other gasket set is lower engine, and from what I have researched and understand, is entirely composed of 300 tdi gaskets. for that reason, as needed I can source all those here cheaply and worldwide.

I have been doing a lot of work on parts compatibility research to source as much of the 2.8 service items domestically as possible. At some point in the near future, I'm going to pull the belts off and try to match them up with a napa equivalent. I'm starting to feel better, now that I know what is 300 tdi and LR original. If someone had done all this research work in advance, I would feel much better about having AND maintaining a 2.8 here in the US, but you can't find this information anywhere on the net (at least in English). At some point I'm going to post everything I learned (on this site of course).

What keeps me up at night that I am working to resolve is that cross country trip in my 110, and I have some engine failure half way across the country and get towed into some po-dunk garage, and trying to have to source parts at that point.

btw, the entire upper valve assembly, not include the head, is entirely 300 tdi part no's!
If you need any parts let me know , also what belts do you need i have some in stock.
over the next few months we will be stocking more and more 2.8 parts here in Florida. We also have the special tools that are different then the 300tdi tools
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  #15  
Old February 17th, 2011, 12:13 PM
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mark kellgren
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What tools are different from 300 tdi so I know?
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  #16  
Old February 17th, 2011, 01:44 PM
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michael
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I've haven't given much thought to the Td5, I may look into that as well. As far as why I want the diesel, it is merely preference, I've seen them up close and used with little maintenance and just not stop. Its too bad the govt is so against them. Has anyone seen or heard of other engine rebuilds? I know of Isuzu engines, but what about trying to put the new 2.4 from the Ford transit vans? I know those are in the new LRs in europe, Is that basically impossible to get in?
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  #17  
Old February 17th, 2011, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Marinerover View Post
I know those are in the new LRs in europe, Is that basically impossible to get in?
It is more about the huge amount of modifications that would be required to install it. Everything is different in the new trucks to suit the drivetrain.

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Originally Posted by Marinerover View Post
I've seen them up close and used with little maintenance and just not stop.
I would suggest that if more reliability is your reason, you need to find another one.
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  #18  
Old February 17th, 2011, 02:02 PM
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thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinerover View Post
I've haven't given much thought to the Td5, I may look into that as well. As far as why I want the diesel, it is merely preference, I've seen them up close and used with little maintenance and just not stop. Its too bad the govt is so against them. Has anyone seen or heard of other engine rebuilds? I know of Isuzu engines, but what about trying to put the new 2.4 from the Ford transit vans? I know those are in the new LRs in europe, Is that basically impossible to get in?
When you look at the for sale vehicles on the board there is a 90 with 300tdi in it for 23k. People are spending 10k for a "conversion". Me personally I would bring a truck like the one Mike has for sale or one that Doug can get you and you have a great truck without the headaches. They can have a SD cage put on for you if you wanted that sort of protection..
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  #19  
Old February 17th, 2011, 02:18 PM
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Very good points gentlemen, I'll have to look into it
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  #20  
Old February 17th, 2011, 05:36 PM
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I have to agree that a diesel conversion is not cost effective. But then what conversion really is when you consider the time and effort. Not to mention that most conversions rarely stop at just the motor.
As for less maintenance with a diesel, I'm not sure I agree. I suppose it's subjective, but I change the oil and filters in my diesel trucks a lot more often than a gas engine.
I'm also much more careful in buying diesel fuel.
In the end, it comes down to what your preference is and how you drive. There's also a lot to be said for the simplicity of a non ecu diesel which seems to be the most common choice for Defender conversions.
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